E61 HX Choice - Profitec Pro 500 PID or Rocket Giotto/Cellini Evoluzione V2?

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
HRC-E.B.
Posts: 162
Joined: 6 years ago

#1: Post by HRC-E.B. »

I am looking to upgrade from a SB machine to an E61 HX. My two front runners are the two machines mentioned above. Both available from reputable sellers for the same price of $2200 CDN.

I was initially drawn to the simple fuss-free internal design and engineering (and selection of non-proprietary parts) of the Pro 500, figuring that should it require maintenance, it would be the easiest to work on and get parts for.

A bit more concerned with the Rocket that has its own electronic controller and a bit more wiring and piping inside compared to the Profitec, but this is not a showstopper, given availability of support.

I like the looks of both. The main differences to me are:

- if going with the Rocket, I lose a PID for a Sirai pressurestat, but gain a commercial-grade rotary pump and the ability to plumb in eventually, or

- if going with Profitec, I gain a PID, gain a slightly bigger stainless boiler and lose the rotary for a basic vibe pump and lose the ability to ever plumb it in (not a showstopper).

Am I correct in assuming that 2.0l stainless vs 1.8l copper makes as good as no difference and that the decision should come down to whether I want a rotary and pressurestat or a pid and vibe pump?

All else equal, I'd want a rotary and a PID, but while these options exist, all are at least $600 CDN more, which means $700 more when including taxes on the extra. Too much money for me for not such a tangible benefit. That said, if the Profitec had a rotary and was switchable for no more than $200 more, for example, that's what I'd buy in a heartbeat... But that does not exist.

Which would you recommend over the other and why?

HRC-E.B. (original poster)
Posts: 162
Joined: 6 years ago

#2: Post by HRC-E.B. (original poster) »

I should have mentioned that as of right now, I'm leaning towards the Rocket because of the rotary pump (less likely to need changing in the foreseeable future than a vibe unit) and ability to plumb in the future.

As much as I like the simpler engineering behind the Profitec, I'm thinking the extra complexity in the Rocket should not be a showstopper, given that it is still well put together, and that a pressurestat is still good, even if a PID may potentially better (less temp swings).

Unless of course the all knowledgeable forum can think of elements I haven't considered and should...

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kolu
Posts: 396
Joined: 11 years ago

#3: Post by kolu »

it's HX - PID is irrelevant, if you don't mind the clicking noise.

rotary pump is much better in making espresso, period.

and Rockets are very well designed and built inside, better than Profitecs/ECM in my experience.

Blacktip
Posts: 134
Joined: 6 years ago

#4: Post by Blacktip »

I don't have experience with any. You may want to consider ECM Mechanica Profi and Technica Profi. Appear to be better value.

HRC-E.B. (original poster)
Posts: 162
Joined: 6 years ago

#5: Post by HRC-E.B. (original poster) »

kolu wrote:it's HX - PID is irrelevant, if you don't mind the clicking noise.

rotary pump is much better in making espresso, period.

and Rockets are very well designed and built inside, better than Profitecs/ECM in my experience.
Based on recently-posted Youtube videos by one of the vendors of the Profitec, it would appear that the PID version of the Profitec shows much less pronounced temperature swings compared to the pressurestat version, and puts out very predictable brew water temperatures.

It is possible that a PID-less HX could also be consistent, but on the face of it, it would seem logical that smaller temp deltas in the boiler would result in more even temps overall, wouldn't it?

HRC-E.B. (original poster)
Posts: 162
Joined: 6 years ago

#6: Post by HRC-E.B. (original poster) »

Blacktip wrote:I don't have experience with any. You may want to consider ECM Mechanica Profi and Technica Profi. Appear to be better value.
The machines I mentioned are $2200. How would a $3500 ECM represent better value?

Aaron
Posts: 383
Joined: 14 years ago

#7: Post by Aaron »

I own the Rocket and love it. It works great and is very consistent. The plumbing in and out options also very great. I have been using it for about a year now and no
issues. After doing my research for machines in this price range I think this one is the best. After using it a lot I think it was the right decision.
“The powers of a man's mind are proportionate to the quantity of coffee he drinks” - James McKintosh

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kolu
Posts: 396
Joined: 11 years ago

#8: Post by kolu »

HRC-E.B. wrote:It is possible that a PID-less HX could also be consistent, but on the face of it, it would seem logical that smaller temp deltas in the boiler would result in more even temps overall, wouldn't it?
well, in case of double boiler yes, but this is a thermosyphon/restrictor temperature regulated system where the brew temp is mostly determined by the brew group temperature (because even overheated water at the flowrate of espresso extraction has enough time to cool down in the E61 channels to proper brew temp) which is heated by continuous heat flow from heat exchanger and its temperature is heavily dependent on group heat radiation/surrounding airflow/room temp/etc. so even tight regulation of boiler temp is way less important (and have negligible effect in correctly designed system) than finetuned HX/thermosyphon loop. and Rocket did their homework there (their machines have properly restricted thermosyphon loop).
have you ever tried double-blind tasting two espressos made with 1°C temp difference (assuming same machines and pulled at approx. the same time, in double-blind triangulation setup)? I doubt its possible - we have it tried it on 3 group Synesso Cyncra with my fellows like 2 years ago and we weren't able to consistently spot difference.

but for the pump, it might sound stupid, but I thing that brings way more noticeable difference than PID/pstat. first I had Ulka EX4 in my Grimac Mini/La Uno, cca 120 ml/30sec water debit, slow pressure rise, long preinfusion, quiet, expansion valve set to 10 Bar. made OK espresso. replaced with Ulka EX5, louder, faster (200 ml/30sec still with 0,7 mm restrictor, same setting for expansion valve), made way better coffee (although it should not, because I have shortened the preinfusion, right?). replaced last month by externally mounted rotary vane pump, 280ml/30sec water debit, 10 Bar bypass, pours in way more controllable manned (no chanelling, coffee comes from the whole bottom area of basket at the same time, everything looks more even).
now I have second Grimac Mini side-by-side with my one, both set the same, the new one with Ulka EX5, I'm planning to pull some shot simultaniously to see if the effect is real or just my imagination.

Aaron
Posts: 383
Joined: 14 years ago

#9: Post by Aaron »

Also the Rocket does have a PID. It is located behind the drip tray. I'm using the factory setting so the user doesn't really need to do anything with it but you can change it if you want.
“The powers of a man's mind are proportionate to the quantity of coffee he drinks” - James McKintosh

JayBeck
Posts: 1216
Joined: 7 years ago

#10: Post by JayBeck »

The copper boiler and messy inside design of Rocket machines is enough that I would never buy one. Copper is more prone to scale and some say can give water a weird taste compared to stainless.
Rockets also use unnecessary solenoid valves which are common points of failure. Plus, if you plumb, rockets can't do true line pressure preinfusion like their Profitec/ECM counterparts can due to said solenoid valves.

I used to think PID in a HX was a waste like an above poster. I could not have been more wrong. There is now ample evidence that the Pro 500 PID does not need the level of cooling flushes that other HX machines need. This is a huge feature and currently makes this machine standout from other HX prosumer machines. The Germans have done it again.

Im like you: I wish they'd make a rotary pump version.

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