Asian Counterfeits of Slayer, Kees, Nuova Simonelli... - Page 2
- slipchuck
- Posts: 1485
- Joined: 7 years ago
As long as people want to save money, counterfeiting will never go awayDaveC113 wrote:This is the major reason I avoid MIC goods as much as possible. Of course it's not entirely possible these days and there are some good companies and products that may be exceptions but the Chinese government seems to tolerate this behavior and it's completely out-of-hand. There are counterfeits of everything these days and it's been happening for so long that it must be tolerated. And this costs everybody money, directly or indirectly. It's time to stop the Chinese counterfeiting!
Randy
“There is nobody you can’t learn to like once you’ve heard their story.”
- redbone
- Posts: 3564
- Joined: 12 years ago
Point being that there are no savings of money. Saving money would imply that one is purchasing the same item for a lower price.
It's an illusion to believe there is a savings here. The buyer of the counterfeit is buying another product that looks somewhat like a well respected, engineered, tested and certified but is not. In this case it's difficult to say that the copied item even look alike beyond the general shape.
It's an illusion to believe there is a savings here. The buyer of the counterfeit is buying another product that looks somewhat like a well respected, engineered, tested and certified but is not. In this case it's difficult to say that the copied item even look alike beyond the general shape.
Between order and chaos there is espresso.
Semper discens.
Rob
LMWDP #549
Semper discens.
Rob
LMWDP #549
- slipchuck
- Posts: 1485
- Joined: 7 years ago
I agree. But for some people price will always be the bottom line.
Randy
Randy
“There is nobody you can’t learn to like once you’ve heard their story.”
- Paul_Pratt
- Posts: 1467
- Joined: 19 years ago
I do not think they have anything in place with the exception of the needle valve patent. The needle valve patent is curious as it was filed in 2014 IIRC yet the flow control via a needle valve is public knowledge all the way back to 2009. And that is a US patent only. That is not to take away anything from Slayer who have done a good job of getting people to focus on the pre-infusion stage of extraction.pallen wrote:Plus the obvious legal challenges. You can be sure Slayer has their design patented and will defend that patent as needed.
- Paul_Pratt
- Posts: 1467
- Joined: 19 years ago
Those fakes are pretty awful and more amusing than anything else so I am not sure anybody would give them the slightest thought. I always mention this whenever these things come up, speaking from my own experience, the chinese factories do not sit there hatching plans to copy this and that. They would never spend money on tooling, they just make what they have been paid to do. There is always someone, somewhere in the US, Europe or Australia who has asked them to make such and such and stumped up the $ for molds and tools. My products have repeatedly been copied, the first corner mat copies came out within months from the US parts company and then in Italy from Motta. Not a month goes by without spotting another Tubbi knockbox copy in Australia. Are they made in China? 99% yes but 100% they were commissioned and paid for by an overseas company.
The other misconception is that IP protection is worthless in China. That may have been the case, but more recently no, it is enforceable. Our first Cafelat products came out in 2009 and I thought the corner mat was a quirky fun item, nothing more, so we did not protect it. I reckon there are 30-40 copies on the market today at least. In the past several years we now patent the entire lot and it has worked. Just last month we stopped a knockbox copy at the source bound for Europe. It's a lot of effort but the principle is at stake. Right now we are in process with Taobao to have all copies removed from Taobao and Alibaba.
I still pay a royalty % on every corner mat and tubbi we sell to our designer in Denmark. Yet the copy items sold by "reputable" companies day in and day out in the US, Europe Australia etc. do not. It really sucks!
I will give one example of how it works. We make the micro fiber cloths, again just a useful fun item, I remember choosing the size and the grey and black colours in 2009. Our biggest client for these has always been a wholesale or coffee equipment in Europe. We noticed they stopped ordering from us earlier this year and so made some enquiries. In their new catalog we saw that they still carried our cloths - but under a new name! It was even the same photo but with our name removed. What had happened was they worked with another accessories company to supply the same cloths and even used the same colours, same size and the same packaging. The accessories company from Australia even changed their logo of many years to now look like ours, even the woven label is identical. From a few feet away you would think they are the same. If you are amused go to Amazon and search cremapro cloths.
So again I would like to point out that the factories are in the manufacturing business, that is all they do. Someone somewhere has paid them to do it and that company is the one who is ultimately responsible. But if you have the correct protection in China you can get it stopped without too much drama.
Now after that long winded stuff, obviously there are a few rogues who do nothing but copy, like the aforementioned Dalian Amazon and the Wingkin people.
Now as for the old quality debate, I can tell you most filter baskets are now made in China, even the ones you think are not. Pumps from the main companies? China. Even one of the most respected espresso machine companies manufactures some main parts in china, ship back to Italy and voila, made in italy.
The other misconception is that IP protection is worthless in China. That may have been the case, but more recently no, it is enforceable. Our first Cafelat products came out in 2009 and I thought the corner mat was a quirky fun item, nothing more, so we did not protect it. I reckon there are 30-40 copies on the market today at least. In the past several years we now patent the entire lot and it has worked. Just last month we stopped a knockbox copy at the source bound for Europe. It's a lot of effort but the principle is at stake. Right now we are in process with Taobao to have all copies removed from Taobao and Alibaba.
I still pay a royalty % on every corner mat and tubbi we sell to our designer in Denmark. Yet the copy items sold by "reputable" companies day in and day out in the US, Europe Australia etc. do not. It really sucks!
I will give one example of how it works. We make the micro fiber cloths, again just a useful fun item, I remember choosing the size and the grey and black colours in 2009. Our biggest client for these has always been a wholesale or coffee equipment in Europe. We noticed they stopped ordering from us earlier this year and so made some enquiries. In their new catalog we saw that they still carried our cloths - but under a new name! It was even the same photo but with our name removed. What had happened was they worked with another accessories company to supply the same cloths and even used the same colours, same size and the same packaging. The accessories company from Australia even changed their logo of many years to now look like ours, even the woven label is identical. From a few feet away you would think they are the same. If you are amused go to Amazon and search cremapro cloths.
So again I would like to point out that the factories are in the manufacturing business, that is all they do. Someone somewhere has paid them to do it and that company is the one who is ultimately responsible. But if you have the correct protection in China you can get it stopped without too much drama.
Now after that long winded stuff, obviously there are a few rogues who do nothing but copy, like the aforementioned Dalian Amazon and the Wingkin people.
Now as for the old quality debate, I can tell you most filter baskets are now made in China, even the ones you think are not. Pumps from the main companies? China. Even one of the most respected espresso machine companies manufactures some main parts in china, ship back to Italy and voila, made in italy.
-
- Posts: 234
- Joined: 7 years ago
well, iPhone is made in China.
as long as there's a good QC - they can do amazing things, imho.
Paul, thanks for the story. it is interesting to read about the "other" side (not the consumer).
as long as there's a good QC - they can do amazing things, imho.
Paul, thanks for the story. it is interesting to read about the "other" side (not the consumer).
LMWDP #630
- AssafL
- Posts: 2588
- Joined: 14 years ago
They may be able to stop the ingress of these machines to Europe and USA based on design trademark. Not patents. Just like Fluke has had decent success limiting the sales of Yellow / Gray multimeters. The courts seem to accept that an electrician may pick up a Yellow/Gray DMM and not realize it is a Fuke (and not Fluke) - and worse - assume it has the same IEC safety rating
as a genuine Fluke. If said Fuke is painted green the courts will allow the sale.
Slayer and the rest should ensure they trademark their design and associate their investment in safety (ROHS, NSF) as reason for the public good to demand there is no confusion between a real Slayer and a fake Slayer.
BTW - There are lots of markets that cannot manufacture in Europe and the US for all kinds of reasons. Two I disticltly remember is carbon fiber bicycle frames and the other HDMI cables.
Carbon fiber can be woven in the US (they make missile parts like that) but to get an OSHA and EPA certified line is really expensive. In Taiwan the don't regulate safety and environment as much so AFAIK all carbon fiber frames are made in Asia. Even if they press the cups in so that can stamp USA on it.
HDMI cables cannot be soldered. Only ultrasonically welded. The only jigs for this are in China. Again - not impossible to do one offs in the USA at substantial expense - but no capability to set up a line. But the cables themselves can be made in the USA. Just the assembly must be China.
PCB manufacturing is another China best bet. Albeit for some countries taxes and import export regulation make in country assembly much easier - Brazil comes to mind.
as a genuine Fluke. If said Fuke is painted green the courts will allow the sale.
Slayer and the rest should ensure they trademark their design and associate their investment in safety (ROHS, NSF) as reason for the public good to demand there is no confusion between a real Slayer and a fake Slayer.
BTW - There are lots of markets that cannot manufacture in Europe and the US for all kinds of reasons. Two I disticltly remember is carbon fiber bicycle frames and the other HDMI cables.
Carbon fiber can be woven in the US (they make missile parts like that) but to get an OSHA and EPA certified line is really expensive. In Taiwan the don't regulate safety and environment as much so AFAIK all carbon fiber frames are made in Asia. Even if they press the cups in so that can stamp USA on it.
HDMI cables cannot be soldered. Only ultrasonically welded. The only jigs for this are in China. Again - not impossible to do one offs in the USA at substantial expense - but no capability to set up a line. But the cables themselves can be made in the USA. Just the assembly must be China.
PCB manufacturing is another China best bet. Albeit for some countries taxes and import export regulation make in country assembly much easier - Brazil comes to mind.
Scraping away (slowly) at the tyranny of biases and dogma.
-
- Posts: 221
- Joined: 13 years ago
I'd be curious to see if they're all just HXs inside the cases or something. You could see some small things like the PID display screen was mounted at an angle etc.
But ultimately for some people if it meant you could have 70% of a slayer at 50% of the price it might make a lot of sense. But I wonder if the price breaks are even that good anyway.
But ultimately for some people if it meant you could have 70% of a slayer at 50% of the price it might make a lot of sense. But I wonder if the price breaks are even that good anyway.
-
- Posts: 221
- Joined: 13 years ago
So I found some GS3 copies that were available, because I was curious about the price. It looks like that are selling for something like 7200$ USD. So that's not really a remarkable savings, especially with the current sale that La Marzocco is having. But ultimately they might have the different wood options etc.
Maybe this is more for asian markets, where it might be harder or more expensive to get access to machines like that. I know that you sometimes see that in different sites for electronics as well.
Maybe this is more for asian markets, where it might be harder or more expensive to get access to machines like that. I know that you sometimes see that in different sites for electronics as well.
-
- Posts: 1375
- Joined: 11 years ago
I'm guessing that many of the purchasers of this copied equipment merely want a workable machine at a reduced price due to financial restraints. Not every cafe can afford a top quality, modern espresso machine due to the differences in income globally. They could go with refurbished machines, but there are likely issues with those and continued service might be a huge burden. (Then again try getting these clone machines serviced in about 2 years and you are likely to find parts unavailable!!!)
It makes me wonder if some of the major manufacturers could profit from the old Bialetti Moka Pot strategy. When copies of the Moka Pot began to hit the market Bialetti made their own clones, sans-logo, and flooded the market. People continued to buy the logoed product and if they wanted a "clone" they were likely buying one of Bialetti's clones. You wouldn't have to put out the latest technology for your clones, but a good, solid machine with basic dosing and OK style would likely be competitive given a large enough market.
It makes me wonder if some of the major manufacturers could profit from the old Bialetti Moka Pot strategy. When copies of the Moka Pot began to hit the market Bialetti made their own clones, sans-logo, and flooded the market. People continued to buy the logoed product and if they wanted a "clone" they were likely buying one of Bialetti's clones. You wouldn't have to put out the latest technology for your clones, but a good, solid machine with basic dosing and OK style would likely be competitive given a large enough market.
LMWDP #445