Hi Guys,

I've been reading through a bunch of the reviews and posts on this site, and I think I pretty much know the basic answer to my question, which is that any of the machines I'm considering will be really good. The finalists are:

Rocket Espresso Giotto Type V Espresso Machine
From Seattle Coffee Gear. Looks really nice, pretty much all the machines in this range will be similar in quality. Not exactly sure what criteria to use. There are several versions of Rocket machines that are very close in price and it isn't clear to me what the difference is.

Profitec Pro 500 Espresso Machine
From Whole Latte Love. This place has several of the machine listed on HomeBarista. Single heat exchange boiler

Expobar Brewtus IV with Vibration Pump
Also from Whole Latte Love. This one has two boilers, both heat exchange. Two gauges, water temp and something else, I assume pressure. No PID

Izzo Alex Duetto 3
This is much more expensive than the others, which isn't a dealbreaker if it really is heads and shoulders better, but I have my doubts. Not a heat exchanger

QUICK MILL Dual Boiler QM67 Evo
From Clive Coffee. Double boiler

I guess the basic questions I have are:

• how essential is a PID?

• How essential is a double boiler?

• Is there anything about the duetto that justifies the $500 price difference?

Is there one machine over another that leaps out at you guys? Like I said, I'm sure any of them will be great and a nice step up from my slivia.

A PID & DB are a waste of money on an e61 machine. You're going to have to flush regardless and neither of those will change that. Save the money & buy the best e61 (I mean required) accessrory out there: erics e61 grouphead thermometer. I'd take that attachment over any pid or dual boiler and it's about $120 I think.

Been using the izzo duetto 2 for many years. She has served me well. Minimal maintenance. Do it!
Second Chris coffee. Love those guys

First, I think getting an e61 machine is an excellent choice. Like you, I recently moved from a Silvia to pro500 and considered much of what you are considering now. When I purchased the pro500, it was with a mind to possibly move to a db in about 5 years. However, since owning it (along with Eric's thermometer), I have no desire for a db. Obviously, you're opening the db vs hx debate for which there is no consensus.

Here's Kees van der Westen on hx: http://www.keesvanderwesten.com/mirage- ... ction.html. He knows a thing or two about espresso machines.

Leaving aside the hx vs. db, here's what I like about the pro500: Stainless steel boiler is nice to have, and the inside is cleanly laid out. I actually like the ramp up in pressure from the vibe pump, and basically no pump is going to be louder than even the quietest electric grinder. The steaming power is great, it recovers well, and is very temperature stable. The flush routine is easy, as well. I have experimented with flush-and-go vs. flush-and-wait and find the flush-and-go to give better results and to be easier/quicker. (Similar routine to what you see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSReIdVyXjw) This is something that's very easy to do with Eric's thermometer, which would be a wise investment. Even PID controlled machines will vary in temperature due to atmospheric conditions, and it gives me a more real time reading. Accuracy is also less important than consistency and adjusting according to taste-the tongue is king. The temperature profile of the hx machine is also a plus for me. I also like the reservoir design sans tubes from the top and find it more convenient to remove the entire top with cups on it to refill rather than to move all the cups off to open a hatch.

Finally, price. I followed the advice of many here and prioritized the grinder. The price of the pro500 allowed me to spend more on a grinder, and I'm very happy I did. (Unfortunately the monolith flat was still out of reach.) If you are considering upgrading your grinder (or even just spending more on coffee beans)...

What could be improved? I like how mine is tuned right now, but to change the boiler pressure or brew pressure, I would have to open the machine up. Not a big deal. Given that I can't plumb in, plumbing is a non issue, but if I could, I'm sure it would be nice. If you can plumb in, certainly something to consider.

Hope this helps. The e61 is a great design, and I'm sure you will be thrilled with any of the machines on your list.

jammin wrote:A PID & DB are a waste of money on an e61 machine. You're going to have to flush regardless and neither of those will change that. Save the money & buy the best e61 (I mean required) accessrory out there: erics e61 grouphead thermometer. I'd take that attachment over any pid or dual boiler and it's about $120 I think.

Yes, a dual boiler/pid design indeed does not make sense combined with E61 because a lot of temperature accuracy that you get you lose again in the brass group and on top of that you have worse heat transfer due to smaller temperature differences in the group heating siphon. E61 is a design made for HX in a time where digital control did not yet exist reallying on the termal mass of the brass group for stability. Thats what my research into the subject before buying a machine thought me.

If you want true digitally controled db functionality a saturated group is the only way to go. These are more expensive LM (though technically the LMLM can even be seen as a HX) machines but also interestingly enough the much cheaper Profitec 300 or Breville Dual Boiler. But if you like the E61 design (and who can fault you) go for a good HX and if temperature is important a solution like Jammin suggests.

Essential is a strange question.
What is the usage pattern likely to be?
I know cafes who've switched away from Kees machines because they weren't consistent enough but in the home, a well tuned e61 has a great reputation if you're happy to do a little flushing and save a lot of money... apparently adding a flow restrictor can reduce the need for flushing, too.
There are vibe pump machines which are much noisier than my Robur... and of course some of the newer quieter grinders... very few absolutes in coffee.

the concensus that a dual boiler and PID is a waste makes me look at the expobar, which has a dual boiler and no PID. The duetto has pid and dual boilers, is that a waste of $$?

It's not a waste - it'll give you push button control and easily repeatable shots... HX takes a bit more learning and skill and by reports may have a slightly different taste all else being equal.

badperson wrote:the concensus that a dual boiler and PID is a waste makes me look at the expobar, which has a dual boiler and no PID. The duetto has pid and dual boilers, is that a waste of $$?

There is no consensus on this subject. It's been discussed over and over again. People with DBs and PIDs love them (full disclosure: I have a Duetto II). People with HX love them. If you're at the point where you've decided to invest in this level of machine, none of it is a "waste". It really comes down to what features and operating routine you want, and the price you can afford. Think about how each machine works to produce a shot and steam milk, step by step, and decide if you want to do that routine, over and over again, for years to come.