Sea level to 2000 meters, extraction all wrong.

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kiboker
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#1: Post by kiboker »

I'm a self taught barista but have been running a cafe for 3 years successfully in a beach town. I have a Coatepec coffee that I've been very pleased with (medium-dark roast). Recently though I moved to open a new shop at about 2000 meters up and the flavor has been quite disappointing. I started diagnosing and tweaking and discovered that a 14 gram double was pushing 45-50 gram shots and wouldn't improve despite of how I adjusted the grind. I finally got the flavor and weight I was looking for (28ish) BUT at a half oz per shot. I've tried higher dosing, different grinds, none is yielding a better result than a half volume shot. Any recommendations?

I use a la pavoni Bar M2.

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MB
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#2: Post by MB »

Have you ruled out water differences as a potential issue? Also, altitude can play havoc on temperatures for heating water.
LMWDP #472

Stanic
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#3: Post by Stanic »

I live at 1000 m asl. and water in a kettle boils at 97 degrees Celsius..not sure about pressurised boilers but there has to be some effect

avid
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#4: Post by avid »

MB wrote:Have you ruled out water differences as a potential issue? Also, altitude can play havoc on temperatures for heating water.
At 2000 meters water boils at 200 degrees or 93.3 celsius.

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MB
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#5: Post by MB »

I did a quick search on "altitude" on this site and from what I saw, you might want to check that out.

If that's not the answer, though, I would still recommend checking the water to see if it's making things difficult.
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kiboker (original poster)
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#6: Post by kiboker (original poster) »

If it is the water temp, is that adjustable?

engineeredbrew
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#7: Post by engineeredbrew replying to kiboker »

I think it depends on your machine and how much temperature loss is expected between the boiler and group head. You could probably also get there by preheating the coffee and portafilter If you really needed to.

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RapidCoffee
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#8: Post by RapidCoffee »

kiboker wrote:Recently though I moved to open a new shop at about 2000 meters up and the flavor has been quite disappointing. I started diagnosing and tweaking and discovered that a 14 gram double was pushing 45-50 gram shots and wouldn't improve despite of how I adjusted the grind. I finally got the flavor and weight I was looking for (28ish) BUT at a half oz per shot. I've tried higher dosing, different grinds, none is yielding a better result than a half volume shot. Any recommendations?
Hi Joel. Several issues in your post need clarification:

1. Read this post on brew ratios. A 14g dose and a 45-50g shot has a brew ratio of about 30%, squarely in the lungo category. Is this is your goal? There are relatively few lungo fans on this site.

2. You state that adjusting the grind did not improve matters. What grinder are you using? For a given brew time (25-30s is the "golden rule"), you should be able to increase the brew ratio with a finer grind and/or a higher dose.

3. You mention "28ish" as desirable, but at "half oz" per shot. This does not compute. By weight, 28g is about one ounce. One half ounce cannot possibly weigh more than 14g. If the shot contains any crema, it will weigh appreciably less.

Please clarify and perhaps we can help you better.
kiboker wrote:If it is the water temp, is that adjustable?
If your machine is a heat exchanger, adjusting boiler temperature and flush time will allow you to tweak brew temperature. But first you need to get the shot mechanics right.
John

kiboker (original poster)
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#9: Post by kiboker (original poster) »

RapidCoffee wrote:Hi Joel. Several issues in your post need clarification:

1. Read this post on brew ratios. A 14g dose and a 45-50g shot has a brew ratio of about 30%, squarely in the lungo category. Is this is your goal? There are relatively few lungo fans on this site.

2. You state that adjusting the grind did not improve matters. What grinder are you using? For a given brew time (25-30s is the "golden rule"), you should be able to increase the brew ratio with a finer grind and/or a higher dose.

3. You mention "28ish" as desirable, but at "half oz" per shot. This does not compute. By weight, 28g is about one ounce. One half ounce cannot possibly weigh more than 14g. If the shot contains any crema, it will weigh appreciably less.

Please clarify and perhaps we can help you better.

If your machine is a heat exchanger, adjusting boiler temperature and flush time will allow you to tweak brew temperature. But first you need to get the shot mechanics right.


Hi John,

Sorry If I wasn't clear. I am pulling on volume, 2 ounce double shots, NOT lungo. however, the WEIGHT is coming in the neighborhood of 40something grams. All I've read is that this is a matter of extraction, so I adjusted the grind, but the extraction is not yielding the ideal lower weight. I've zeroed the scale and pulled dozens of shots. To pull a double shot that weighed in at the ideal 28 grams, i am having to stop it at 1 liquid oz, 28 ml. At that pull, it has most of the body of flavor I've been used to at lower altitude. But that's not particularly practical because espresso drinkers don't want a half shot and my costs go up. My pull times are up 26 seconds but I've altered it a number of ways to find the right balance.

Thank you
Joel

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RapidCoffee
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#10: Post by RapidCoffee »

kiboker wrote:I am pulling on volume, 2 ounce double shots, NOT lungo. however, the WEIGHT is coming in the neighborhood of 40something grams.
14g coffee dose and 40g extracted liquid gives a brew ratio of 35%. Like it or not, that is a lungo.
kiboker wrote:To pull a double shot that weighed in at the ideal 28 grams, i am having to stop it at 1 liquid oz, 28 ml.
Are you getting any crema in your extractions? An espresso shot should extract as virtually 100% crema (from a pump machine). Crema has roughly half the density of water, so 2oz volume of crema weighs about 28g (and 1 oz weighs only 14g). If your extractions have the same density as water, something has gone badly wrong.
John

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