tohenk2 wrote:That's also how I read it. But for those particular local end depots the probability of recurrence is very high. So ... this got me wondering; if you know that in advance (like Jim seems to know for at least a couple of local end-depots based on his experience), then why not triple box it or do *something* to avoid damage? Or is it more cost effective to ship, see if you are lucky this time, and ship back and forth if not?

Good question. For really heavy espresso machines, I think mini pallet shipments or breaking up the unit into separate packages are the only choices that would make a significant difference if we're talking 4' vertical drops onto a concrete floor (as noted below). You can only add so much padding and stay within the size/weight limitations for boxed shipment.

sweaner wrote:I still wonder what could happen to a double boxed machine if there is no obvious external box damage.

The box for the Cimbali Junior I received showed corner deformation. I've received other equipment with no signs of external damage, but that doesn't mean it wasn't dropped flat. I'm reminded of what Russel said in Packing espresso equipment for shipment:

russel wrote:I receive and ship a lot of stuff and as a result I know the guys at my local FedEx store pretty well. Once, while I was shipping an espresso machine the associate raised an eyebrow when he noticed that the declared value was well over $1000. He asked if it was packaged well. I told him that I had packed it myself and that it should be fine. He then asked me a question that totally fried my brain for a second or two: So you would be OK if I pushed this off the counter right now?

All I could manage to say was that I would really prefer it if he didn't. Anything you ship with a standard carrier should be able to survive a 4ft drop, and also having something else dropped onto it from 4ft above. A lot of sorting is done by machine and packages will fall from time to time. Anything heavy or with delicate bits should be either double boxed or packed in a box+foamboard with ample cushioning and support.

Some espresso machines can handle rough handling better than others. For example, the Isomac Mondiale had rounded curves and the vendor told me they would remove the casing and ship it separately, since it was otherwise nearly certain to be damaged in transit.

For any espresso machine approaching 70 pounds, I think the extra cost of a mini pallet shipment is justified. But these days, many buyers are reluctant to absorb any shipping costs and vendors are reluctant to take a hit on their profit margin just to reduce the risk of damage by a tiny fraction. Of course, it's small comfort to the buyer when they're the small fraction who's inconvenienced when the shipper manhandles their several thousand dollar espresso machine.

HB wrote:Good question. For really heavy espresso machines, I think mini pallet shipments or breaking up the unit into separate packages are the only choices that would make a significant difference if we're talking 4' vertical drops onto a concrete floor (as noted below). You can only add so much padding and stay within the size/weight limitations for boxed shipment.
...
For any espresso machine approaching 70 pounds, I think the extra cost of a mini pallet shipment is justified. But these days, many buyers are reluctant to absorb any shipping costs and vendors are reluctant to take a hit on their profit margin just to reduce the risk of damage by a tiny fraction. Of course, it's small comfort to the buyer when they're the small fraction who's inconvenienced when the shipper manhandles their several thousand dollar espresso machine.

Ok. Thanks. This makes perfect sense to me now.

sweaner wrote:I still wonder what could happen to a double boxed machine if there is no obvious external box damage.

Unfortunately, most people do not understand what packages go through at depots with respect to loaders and unloaders throwing packages, slides, and conveyor belts. Once one sees the back of house of a depot like i have, then one will understand. In addition, it is even more difficult to understand about 'inertial forces' that can impact a machine or grinder. The box hit the box in front of it straight on at the end of a 70 foot slide, so no damage to the box, but the machine inside the inner box shifted, or even worse, the components inside the machine shifted.

I'll give an example.... a few years ago, I had sold our first Izzo Alex Duetto to a local customer. After ordering from the importer, the customer arranged to pick it up at our location. Upon arrival, the customer requested that it be started up on the bench. Without reading the instructions, we started it up, heard the pump and water was gushing out of the bottom. We removed the top cover and saw a fitting was not connected.

The unit arrived double boxed. Then we found the one page note that stated that the fitting was taken apart strictly to avoid damage. The case in point is that no matter how they shipped, this particular connection needed to be undone because it always damaged in shipping. The reason I see is that it was inertial forces that would break this connection in transport.

On another note, I ordered from Best Buy a treadmill 4 years ago to be delivered to my house. It weighed over 300 pounds. The box clearly showed two people to lift it. It came on a flatbed truck and one driver who used a dolly. I marked the form with package damaged. Bets Buy pointed the finger to the manufacturer, the manufacturer pointed the finger to the trucking company selected by Best Buy. The manufacturer agreed to send a person to repair it and assemble it so it can be tested. I had to wait 6 weeks for the parts, then when the repair guy came (from another company), he said that he was only fixing it, not assembling it. At that point, I was frustrated and just wanted to return it. Best Buy would not take it back because I was past the eligible return period. I had to lug this box by myself and go fight with a store manager for a refund. He only would provide a store credit - like I really wanted to shop with them. The bottomline was that I was willing to work with them. Unfortunately, they did not deliver as originally agreed. If this was major damage, I would have never signed for it.

In this case, the damage was minor. However, the customer decided not to keep the machine even after we offered to send the tool for a minor fix. Hence, we went through a damage claim process with UPS to pay for it. Unfortunately, as I explained to the customer that the likelihood right now is that a replacement will have a high probability of this happening again as we have experienced in the past when replacements were shipped. Again, the customers local UPS center was not handling the packages again. If it was our local UPS center, we would see a much higher rate of damage. We know the packaging works because, in most cases, the units arrive safely.

sweaner wrote:Jim, how could that type of damage occur with shipping if the machine is double boxed and the boxes are intact? If there is a "90% chance" that another would be damaged, then there must be something about the packaging that allows the machine to bend. If 97% arrive without damage, then I would think that there would only be a 3% chance it would recur.

Overall, 97% arrive safely. 90% of replacements get damaged going to the address (locale) where the first machine shipped to was damaged.

HB wrote:Good question. For really heavy espresso machines, I think mini pallet shipments or breaking up the unit into separate packages are the only choices that would make a significant difference if we're talking 4' vertical drops onto a concrete floor (as noted below). You can only add so much padding and stay within the size/weight limitations for boxed shipment. .... For any espresso machine approaching 70 pounds, I think the extra cost of a mini pallet shipment is justified. But these days, many buyers are reluctant to absorb any shipping costs and vendors are reluctant to take a hit on their profit margin just to reduce the risk of damage by a tiny fraction. Of course, it's small comfort to the buyer when they're the small fraction who's inconvenienced when the shipper manhandles their several thousand dollar espresso machine.

Unfortunately, most customers want shipping included. Shipping on a mini-pallet takes the Vibiemme shipping cost from $90-130 way up to $300+ depending upon location. The internet has slashed profit margins that make it difficult to absorb without a price increase. Pricing the machine higher to absorb this cost would make it not seem like a good value to the end user. So, it's a catch 22.

We do ship the Vibiemme double boilers on pallets. They arrive 100% safely. When we shipped these UPS, over 40% were damaged no matter what we did to package the machines. The same goes for the Elektra T1, the Elektra Mini Verticale, Slayer 1 groups, etc.

Just to put an end to this saga, the machine was picked up by UPS for a damage claim which they will pay for the repair. It was repaired in less than 5 minutes with the tool we used. Our customer is in process of getting refunded. It will be sold on our web site shortly at a discount.

In the past week, our saga with UPS continued not with damages, but with lost packages. One $500 water treatment system as well as a lost ECM espresso machine were both lost. Too bad other carriers are worse.

I have mentioned to other sellers, with fraud and theft incidents such as they are with delivery services, recording the serial numbers of expensive equipment to be able to report same to either law enforcement or to have on an industry database might be a good idea. We all pay for shrinkage.