Hi,

I have spent the last several months scouring the HB forums and soliciting advice on different machines. First, I want to say that these forums have been very helpful and I really appreciate all the feedback that I received for my previous posts.

I've narrowed my choices down two two machines (admittedly, aesthetics were an important factor): the Rocket Giotto Evoluzione (v2) and the Quick Mill M58 Lucca. I understand there is a significant difference in that the Rocket is an HX and the Lucca is a DB, and many may say that I first should have sorted out the HX vs. DB decision first.

As I see it, the relative break-down of the machines is as follows (note that I'm not debating the pros/cons of HX and DB because I see the benefits of both):

Rocket

Pros:

• Beautiful (IMHO)
• 1.8L boiler presumably results in more steam capacity than the Lucca
• Several hundred dollars cheaper than the Lucca
• While painted, the gauge of the frame is thicker

Cons:

• Painted/coated steel frame, which will run the risk of rusting if it gets scratched

Quickmill Lucca

Pros:

• Beautiful (IMHO) (ok, this isn't relative as they are both beautiful)
• Joysticks, which are if nothing else, fun
• Shot timer (I don't consider this a significant pro, but it's still a pro nonetheless)
• Stainless steel frame

Cons:

• Several hundred dollars more expensive than the Rocket

There are some other factors (e.g., Rocket panels are only 1.1mm thick (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHqb9wjws8Y); Rocket exhibits noticeable flex when locking in the portafilter), however I leave these out as I don't know how the Lucca compares, but would guess that the panel thickness and fled are about the same). Neither of these affect the quality of the coffee, but I still would prefer thicker panels and less flex.

I'd love to hear opinions on factors that I've missed, pros/cons that are over- or under-rated, etc., particularly from people with experience with one or both of these machines.

I know you want to avoid the hx vs DB debate, but not sure how you can by comparing these machines.

Both are beautiful, very well built machines. Both will produce equally good results in the cup but have different processes to get you there as has been documented in the many HX vs DB discussions. I.e bing a DB, The Luca is easier to use. The question is whether that is worth the extra $$$ for you.

My 2 cents, figure out your budget and get the best grinder you can. Whatever is left will make your decisions the machine.

Personally, if you're spending that much (and buying new), I would go a little further and get DB and a rotary pump (in the case of the rocket). Which makes them very similar in price and specs.

Both are great machines, no wrong choices here. Much comes down to the little things:
- Toggles: Do you want toggles or knobs? I like toggles, but to each their own
- Looks: (do you want the angled sides the rocket offers? - they have both). Drip trays a little different etc
- Shot timer: Do you want one built in?

In the cup, they'll all be about the same.
IMHO it comes down to the little features above and any preferences you have (for one brand, or a particular dealer, etc)

h3yn0w wrote:I know you want to avoid the hx vs DB debate, but not sure how you can by comparing these machines.

Both are beautiful, very well built machines. Both will produce equally good results in the cup but have different processes to get you there as has been documented in the many HX vs DB discussions. I.e bing a DB, The Luca is easier to use. The question is whether that is worth the extra $$$ for you.

My 2 cents, figure out your budget and get the best grinder you can. Whatever is left will make your decisions the machine.

Thanks. I realize that many people feel that that is a significant difference between the machines. I wanted to avoid HX vs. DB b/c (i) it is a topic that seems to have been beaten to death on these forums and I imagine that people are tired of rehashing old points; and (ii) as I see it, there are tradeoffs to both approaches and I personally don't see one being significantly better than the other for me. If I ended up paying the extra $$$ for the QM, it would be because of the advantages mentioned above more so than the DB. Perhaps that's a mistake.

As for a grinder, I already have a Casadio Enea. If that ends up being insufficient for the machine that I get, I will consider getting another grinder. I'm hoping that won't be necessary, of course.

nickw wrote:Personally, if you're spending that much (and buying new), I would go a little further and get DB and a rotary pump (in the case of the rocket). Which makes them very similar in price and specs.

Both are great machines, no wrong choices here. Much comes down to the little things:
- Toggles: Do you want toggles or knobs? I like toggles, but to each their own
- Looks: (do you want the angled sides the rocket offers? - they have both). Drip trays a little different etc
- Shot timer: Do you want one built in?

In the cup, they'll all be about the same.
IMHO it comes down to the little features above and any preferences you have (for one brand, or a particular dealer, etc)

Perhaps I misunderstood your point, but both machines have rotary pumps and are plumbable, which are "requirements" that I had.

- Toggles: Personally, I like toggles, but that isn't a must-have
- Looks: I believe that they both have angled sides (I haven't been able to see them in-person), though they seem to be more pronounced on the Rocket. From what I can tell online, I don't mind the angled sides, though I'm not as much of a fan of the vents on the QM (though this is just a nit)
- Shot timer: My feeling is that if it has the display, it might as well have the timer. I'd prefer a more analog look a you can get with the Rocket R58 removable interface, though am turned off by the fact that it only runs with 15A.

Yes, I agree that it all comes down to the little things as I imagine that the internal components are largely the same (e.g., copper boilers, Sirai pressure stat), but I'd like to hear if that's not the case.

mwalter wrote:Perhaps I misunderstood your point, but both machines have rotary pumps and are plumbable, which are "requirements" that I had.

- Toggles: Personally, I like toggles, but that isn't a must-have
- Looks: I believe that they both have angled sides (I haven't been able to see them in-person), though they seem to be more pronounced on the Rocket. From what I can tell online, I don't mind the angled sides, though I'm not as much of a fan of the vents on the QM (though this is just a nit)
- Shot timer: My feeling is that if it has the display, it might as well have the timer. I'd prefer a more analog look a you can get with the Rocket R58 removable interface, though am turned off by the fact that it only runs with 15A.

Yes, I agree that it all comes down to the little things as I imagine that the internal components are largely the same (e.g., copper boilers, Sirai pressure stat), but I'd like to hear if that's not the case.

Re pump: The Rocket offers a lot of combo's, but they don't all come with the rotary pumps. I wasn't sure which you were mentioning. Often the HX machines have the vibe pump.

Re sides: Rocket has Giotto (angles sides, like a diamond) and the Cellini (which are the flat sides).

Re 15 amps: 15amps is probably fine. Not all 15 and 20 amps machines are equal in how the toggle both heating elements (or element sizes). But in a home environment, with only one person operating the machine, you'll be okay with 15a. It will keep up with you.

Re pstat: You're looking at machines with PID's, so they wont have pressurestats.

Re boilers and others: You already mentioned the stainless frame on the M58, which is nice. Both have copper boilers (although SS vs copper: both are good). Otherwise they are very close.

Btw: In the video above, where they guy flexes the group. He is pulling on the machine hard (enough to move it) and using two hand to flex it. In the real world, the rocket feels good.

Neither is a wrong choice. I was just trying to nudge you towards the DB (if you did take the rocket).

Dealer wise, I hear good things about Clive. But there are good dealers for the Rocket's too.
Personally, I'd pick the one which you prefer the looks of, and steaming knob/toggles. Which may be the M58. It's a good choice

nickw wrote:Re pump: The Rocket offers a lot of combo's, but they don't all come with the rotary pumps. I wasn't sure which you were mentioning. Often the HX machines have the vibe pump.

I see. No, I want a rotary pump b/c it is quieter and I want to plumb it in.

nickw wrote:Re sides: Rocket has Giotto (angles sides, like a diamond) and the Cellini (which are the flat sides).

I see. I like the diamond-like sides

nickw wrote:Re 15 amps: 15amps is probably fine. Not all 15 and 20 amps machines are equal in how the toggle both heating elements (or element sizes). But in a home environment, with only one person operating the machine, you'll be okay with 15a. It will keep up with you.

I have read various complains of the sub-par steaming capacity, which people attribute to it prioritizing the brew boiler, and that people have found ways of working around it (e.g., by steaming first?). Since I primarily make milk-based drinks, this had me concerned. Perhaps it's less of an issue than I am making it.

nickw wrote:Re pstat: You're looking at machines with PID's, so they wont have pressurestats.

Oops. Good point.

nickw wrote:Re boilers and others: You already mentioned the stainless frame on the M58, which is nice. Both have copper boilers (although SS vs copper: both are good). Otherwise they are very close.

Btw: In the video above, where they guy flexes the group. He is pulling on the machine hard (enough to move it) and using two hand to flex it. In the real world, the rocket feels good.

Yes, it certainly is an exaggerated effort and I imagine that this would happen with most/all machines in this price range.

nickw wrote:Neither is a wrong choice. I was just trying to nudge you towards the DB (if you did take the rocket).

Yes, I am leaning that way, but the person in me who appreciates being involved in the process is tempted by having a role in controlling the temperature on the HX (which is why I said that they both have benefits).

mwalter wrote:Thanks. I realize that many people feel that that is a significant difference between the machines. I wanted to avoid HX vs. DB b/c (i) it is a topic that seems to have been beaten to death on these forums and I imagine that people are tired of rehashing old points; and (ii) as I see it, there are tradeoffs to both approaches and I personally don't see one being significantly better than the other for me. If I ended up paying the extra $$$ for the QM, it would be because of the advantages mentioned above more so than the DB. Perhaps that's a mistake.

I know you don't want to beat the proverbial dead horse. And that's very understandable.

However, at the end of the day, you're going to spend significant money on a machine. At this point, it will be DB or HX. However, each machine will require a very different process to get you to espresso nirvana.

So I don't see how you can only base your decision on aesthetic differences. What will matter day after day is whether you enjoy the process. So you'll need to be comfortable with how an HX works vs a DB, depending which way you go.

So it's actually not beating a dead horse. Since this isn't about what other people think about HXs vs DBs. Indeed, that has been debated ad nauseam.

But what you think, want, and are comfortable with is your decision. And I don't think you've beaten that to death yet.

In fact, like Al Pacino you're...
https://youtu.be/9khtqbZRymU

canuckcoffeeguy wrote:I know you don't want to beat the proverbial dead horse. And that's very understandable.

However, at the end of the day, you're going to spend significant money on a machine. At this point, it will be DB or HX. However, each machine will require a very different process to get you to espresso nirvana.

So I don't see how you can only base your decision on aesthetic differences. What will matter day after day is whether you enjoy the process. So you'll need to be comfortable with how an HX works vs a DB, depending which way you go.

So it's actually not beating a dead horse. Since this isn't about what other people think about HXs vs DBs. Indeed, that has been debated ad nauseam.

But what you think, want, and are comfortable with is your decision. And I don't think you've beaten that to death yet.

In fact, like Al Pacino you're...
https://youtu.be/9khtqbZRymU

I like the video reference

When I was referring to not wanting to focus on HX vs. DB, I meant that I didn't want this to be yet another thread where people debate the merits of the two. My arguably newbie understanding is that the choice is largely subjective and that there are some people who would be happy with both so long as they learned how to use it. I think that I am one of those people, but that is based on speculation as I haven't used an HX* or a DB. HX: I like the idea of being involved in the process of regulating the temperature (I have and love driving manual cars, which is an analogy that I've come across several times); I don't have a refined palate (yet?) and could probably tolerate some slop in my temperature regulation and certainly after I've added milk; and thus, I'm not as concerned about the learning curve for temperature surfing; I'm an engineer and like the elegance of a heat exchanger vs. two boilers. DB: I like the idea of not having to waste as much water for the warming flush vs. the HX cooling flush, particularly since I won't be able to plumb the machine in right away; I would like other people family and friends to be able to pull a decent shot with little training; I'm an engineer who has studied controls and enjoyed my classes and labs on PID loops; and (minor) I'm not a fan of the aesthetics of having a digital thermometer stuck to the E61 group, which seems integral to proper usage of an HX, at least during the learning stage.

Ok, that's my rant regarding my stream-of-consciousness when it comes to HX vs. DB. My point is that I feel that I would be happy with both, in which case other factors may influence my decision regarding the Rocket vs. QM.



* Actually, I did one use for several years, but didn't know what a HX was at the time and certainly not how it should be used, so I don't count that.