HRC-E.B. wrote:I think you are reading a bit too much into my post. When I say it comes set up this wayz I mean that once properly operated (and yes, it includes some flushing), it is set to operate at a certain average temp and cannot be adjusted much from there, unlike the Profitec that can be set higher or lower more easily. That's all.

Yes i did read too much into it - understood.

I wouldn't worry about the capability of adjusting the temperature too often, i have a non pid machine and i have the top off to adjust the pstat (i do it once every few months to see the effects on flushing and temperature).

I think either machine would work - go by whats important to you and please do look at both in person.

I was exactly like you going back n forth between the two machines and i visited many places to take a look at the machines.

Testing the machines, or at least similar (PID/non-PID) kinds of HX machines should help, I think.

If you can get similar quality results from both, without a hassle, then the switchability/rotary pump may be better in the long run, perhaps. As far as I understand, the PID is just a kind of a helper device and if you can get the same results without it, then it's not absolutely necessary. -- Or, the PID could be replaced with a group thermometer.

For me plumbing-in has been important to reduce the hassle. But I have been wanting a group thermometer (Eric's or something like that) to see what's going on. I probably wouldn't need it every time, I could just use it a few times to see what's going on.

The PID and the pressurestat perform the same function - they maintain the temperature/pressure of the steam boiler at a specified setting. The PID maintains it within a very exact range, whereas the pressurestat maintains a regular oscillation within a range. With a PID set at 248F, the temp at the sensor point will stay right at 248F and pressure gauge will read a constant at 1 bar at sea level. But a Sirai pressurestat set for the same functional temp/pressure might keep the machine between 0.9 bar and 1.1 bar gauge pressure, which corresponds to a temperature oscillation (sea level) about 245F to 251F. But they effectively both do the same job because the thermal characteristics of the system (lots of brass in the E-61, with circulating water in the HX loop being indirecly heated by the steam boiler water) will modulate this oscillation so that it makes little difference when it comes to the brew temperature.

At a given setting, in terms of brew temp management *, one is not better than the other. The PID is a lot easier if and when you want to change your boiler temp/pressure, but on an HX that isn't something you normally need to be doing.

ile wrote: ... Or, the PID could be replaced with a group thermometer.

Having or not having a PID is completely unrelated to the decision to install a group thermometer. The group thermometer tells you the temperature of the group when the brew lever is down, and the temperature of the HX water flowing near the thermometer tip when the brew lever is up and water is flowing. These group thermometer temps are very different from the temp of the steam boiler, vary widely depending on ambient temp, recent pulls, recent flushes, etc. When things go wrong and you get an unexpected thermosyphon stall, the thermometer makes that obvious. The readings can help you in deciding whether to flush, and how much, and the readings during the pull might be used to estimate the temperature of the water hitting the puck, but not in any simple way. (See this post showing group thermometer temp versus Scace temp on a Rocket Evoluzione under two different pulling conditions.)

*Edit addition - Having said that, In terms of long term reliability I will concede that the PID and SSR is better. I have an Evoluzione with a Sirai, which I'm confident will last years and is easy to troubleshoot and fix. But I do think the PID and SSR that they are putting in the new type R machines makes total sense. Besides the reliability, ease of use, and the customer appeal of the PID, it simplifies support and maintenance, and down the road should allow a smaller parts inventory for supporting the whole Rocket line.

https://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/mess ... to.112788/

very interesting read on how the HX could behave

Well, unexpected turn of events: a well renowned retailer made me an offer I couldn't refuse. A brand new Rocket Giotto Evoluzione Type R is headed my way.

No more pondering whether to go with a rotary pump/switchability or with a PID at the exclusion of the other: this machine (which would have been out of my price range) has both!

And I get the up-to-date flashy Rocket aesthetics, with the larger valve handles, the big R and the rocket nozzle feet, which I kinda like even though they are less traditional.

Looking forward to putting this and the Franken-Mazzer Mini-Jolly into service soon!

Congrats! now off to water and coffee fidling until you enjoy the sweet syrupy delicous coffee!!! cheers!!

Congratulations. This thread was interesting, if a little over my head! I am looking to purchase a Giotto V so I'll be curious to hear how your machine works out for you.

My friend has a Cellini V (same thing as a Giotto V) and loves it. Had it for more than 3 years. That's the PID vibe pump model. Coffee pours out of that thing like chocolate syrup. You won't be disappointed.

Any recommendations on a grinder? The place I'm buying seems to have a small selection. I'm contemplating the Rocket Fausto but this seems like a crazy grinder for a newbie. I'd like to consider something more reasonable.

baratza sette