Outdated but not obsolete.

Turntables and tube amps is a good analogy. Objectively obsolete with inherently more distorted quality that could still be achieved on a transparent setup anyway with the right filters if you desired it for some reason. But some people like to hold on to history, physically handling media, and rituals. Nothin wrong with that if it makes em happy.

E61 are ruling the midmarket espresso here in Israel and are ubiquitous on all the espresso distribution sites. Maybe the E61's glory days are behind it - but it is as far from becoming Steam Punk...

One thing that I forgot to mention: the OP seems to think that all E-61 groups come as chunks of chromed brass protruding proudly from the flat face of the machine, actuated by manual levers. The reality is that the majority are actually solenoid actuated and attached to automatic machines, hidden under covers and disguised with keypads and boiler PID controllers. In the end, they're a reliable "semi-saturated" group with decent temperature control and easy repairability, and competitive pricing due to the number of manufacturers.

A good indication that they're not going away anytime soon can be seen in the attached photo, top right of the display case ... a Chinese knockoff version at HOST.

Alan

I have been using the BDB 920 for almost 2 years now and I have started using the hot water knob to do pressure profiling every single time I brew about 10 months ago and I have to tell you that the 920 is a very nice espresso machine.

I think the BDB is the reason why you don't like about E61 grouphead and every other complaint you may have with E61. I can't stress enough how good the BDB is.

Yes, I agree that the quality of the BDB can be made better but it will just mean a higher price tag. I'm two years into the machine and I believe I can easily get another 2 years out of it and if it break at that point, I'll just buy another BDB or whatever is better out there at that point and hopefully the 920 will be cheaper.

Technology is improving everyday and honestly, I don't really see the point of buying a machine just for the longevity. For me, it has to be a good mixed of features, quality and price and BDB is just perfect in my opinion. The quality in the cup is very comparable to other much more expensive home use machine. I believe in pressure profiling(another topic that we can debate) and I'd not be surprised that in two years, Breville will give us a dual boiler that can do pressure profiling.

To sum it out, i don't think the E61 group head is outdated as there are still many ppl sway that they prefer the taste from a E61 group than anything else and taste is very personal and nothing wrong with that. Just that, there are so many other option out there today for us coffee lover.

mr2andy wrote: Technology is improving everyday and honestly, I don't really see the point of buying a machine just for the longevity.

I'll have to add a European viewpoint to this. In Europe there is a strong tendency against throw-away appliances. Here, I think, E61 machines still hold a firm grip and their resale value is very high.

And to say it out loud, If one can not get an excellent espresso from an E61 machine, it's hardly ever because of the group.

And for reference to technology improving: trust me, my '59 Caravel still produces the sweetest cups of espresso I've ever had. And I've had plenty.

Very much this. I also still see a huge number of E61 machines being sold. The classical machines have a certain style that modern groupheads don't match. They're going to stick around for a while.

Sure there are some evolutions, e.g. the LM saturated groupheads. But they're still conceptually similar: chunk of metal, some water circulation. Newer machines have now added heaters to the grouphead, but it's still just a boiler and some metal and heaters keeping temperature stable. No huge advantage over the E61, so the market doesn't see a need to upgrade (except for very specialty places who want the best consistency, and shops with time pressure).

I'm pretty sure things like the Decent Espresso concept will make the E61 obsolete eventually - that's an actual innovation compared to the "keep temperature stable" approach of the E61 and more recent groupheads - but they've not even launched, nevermind taking over any significant part of the market.

viveur wrote: Sure there are some evolutions, e.g. the LM saturated groupheads. But they're still conceptually similar: chunk of metal, some water circulation.

Must be the most succinct definition of an espresso machine: chunk of metal, some water circulation.

Isn't it?

Taken out of the context it is - as things always are when taken out of the context. Aren't they?

But right you are! It pretty much nails it down.

viveur wrote:Very much this. I also still see a huge number of E61 machines being sold. The classical machines have a certain style that modern groupheads don't match. They're going to stick around for a while.

Sure there are some evolutions, e.g. the LM saturated groupheads. But they're still conceptually similar: chunk of metal, some water circulation. Newer machines have now added heaters to the grouphead, but it's still just a boiler and some metal and heaters keeping temperature stable. No huge advantage over the E61, so the market doesn't see a need to upgrade (except for very specialty places who want the best consistency, and shops with time pressure).

I'm pretty sure things like the Decent Espresso concept will make the E61 obsolete eventually - that's an actual innovation compared to the "keep temperature stable" approach of the E61 and more recent groupheads - but they've not even launched, nevermind taking over any significant part of the market.

What???

To my knowledge LM didn't invent the saturated group, they where just the first to combine it with a dual boiler design. I recall Faema using this design a long time before LM even began thinking about it.

There is quite a difference between the E61 "chunk of metal" heated by a thermosiphon loop and a saturated group, let alone an electric heated group design. You won't be able to achieve the 0,1c adjustments newer groups are capable of. Heck even the 1c/1f adjustments you can dial in on a PID is being optimistic! Secondly the E61 doesn't by nature allow other type of preinfusion than from its chamber, only by manipulating the pump button engage point can you achieve on-line preinfusion, but dos not allow the same amount of manipulation that newer groups dos without modifying it like Ambient has done on the Vesuvius.

In a commercial setting these mostly sell because the "E61" happens to be a proven and very inexpensive group made in several alterations, therefore it and later alteration has made these groups the to go group for entry level and midrange machines. But I can guarantee you that most cafe and hotel owners know absolutely nothing about the group and cares very little about it, they just want an inexpensive and reliable machine. And in most cases the E61 isn't really an E61 as it uses a solenoid valve, thereby it doesn't follow the original patent and therefore can't be categorised as an E61! It is an Solenoid valve made to look like the iconic group, but has very little in common with it.

Again it will eventually be replaced when the newer technologies gets less expensive, we are allredy seeing more advanced grup and desig creeping into the midrange these days. But it is going to take allot of years especially in more traditional coffee places like Italy, Spain, France and Croatia.

That said I'm sure this group will exist 50 more years, especially in the home market and those places that care about quality, history and simplicity. Just like I'm convinced it will outlast 90% of modern groups, that will be forgotten in 10 years and replaced by more advanced groups, but I think it is a given that modern design and technology will push it out of the mainstream market eventually, how many years that will take depends on how quickly technology gets cheaper, but it won't happen overnight as machines like this is seen as long time investments.