Scott Rao: "Interesting Flavor vs Flavor Balance" - Page 2

#11: Post by **RyanJE** » August 16th, 2017, 2:39 pm

This part hit home with me

99% of the world's coffee is still dreck, and much of the other 1% is "interesting: but usually sour, baked, or vegetal.

I've become frustrated with spending my money on coffees that just taste sour no matter how they are brewed. I find that even from some reputable roasters its a crap shoot if you will get a properly developed roast or not.

I've seen Perger also say / write that the majority of the light roasts he comes across are not properly developed still.

To me, those coffees are a waste of good money and it drives me crazy.

#12: Post by **Almico** » August 16th, 2017, 2:42 pm

RyanJE wrote:This part hit home with me 99% of the world's coffee is still dreck,

That seems to be his mantra. He said the same thing about all the coffee he drank at the SCA Coffee Expo this year. It's a powerful statement.

#13: Post by **mathof** » August 17th, 2017, 5:06 am

Rao's post begins by observing that in Italy expressos are "balanced", as opposed to the over-emphasised flavours he finds in third wave cafes. I'm not sure what Rao means by balance, but one difference he doesn't mention is that coffee bars in Italy invariably serve blends, not single origins. Blends are bound to offer more flavours than single origins, however "interesting" the latter can be.

Matt

#14: Post by **aecletec** » August 17th, 2017, 6:12 am

mathof wrote:Rao's post begins by observing that in Italy expressos are "balanced", as opposed to the over-emphasised flavours he finds in third wave cafes.

A great point about blends... as much as I like, respect and use many of Rao's ideas... comparing espresso in one country to another isn't that helpful for the majority of readers or drinkers either.

Almico wrote:It's a powerful statement.

It's a high bar to set when one says just about all coffee is bad... I can respect the ideal to pursue better and better coffee, but while I do agree much of coffee I'm served in specialty cafes could be better, I gotta wonder if this won't get readers offside!

#15: Post by **earlgrey_44** » August 17th, 2017, 10:30 am

Almico wrote:
I believe my role in the coffee business is to educate my customers by communicating what is possible, not what is good or not.

I greatly admire this attitude. It's OK to also communicate your enthusiasm and values, but your stated goal is primary.

#16: Post by **yakster** » August 17th, 2017, 12:59 pm

RyanJE wrote:This part hit home with me

99% of the world's coffee is still dreck, and much of the other 1% is "interesting: but usually sour, baked, or vegetal.

I've become frustrated with spending my money on coffees that just taste sour no matter how they are brewed. I find that even from some reputable roasters its a crap shoot if you will get a properly developed roast or not.

Chris Tacy (@malachi) has an interesting post on his blog about the state of US espresso blends and how their quality and focus has fallen off over the years that seems related.

http://godshot.blogspot.com/2017/04/ope ... anies.html

Maybe that's why the Italian espresso thread is getting so much traction.

Italian Coffees. Lets talk about Kimbo, Danesi, Lavazza, Caffe motta, Illy

#17: Post by **Almico** » August 17th, 2017, 2:31 pm

yakster wrote:Chris Tacy (@malachi) has an interesting post on his blog about the state of US espresso blends and how their quality and focus has fallen off over the years that seems related.

http://godshot.blogspot.com/2017/04/ope ... anies.html[/url]

Whoa...that's a little harsh. But then again, I don't drink espresso out. I learned to drink and appreciate espresso after I started roasting my own coffee. I've never bought a bag of Redbird or Black Cat. The bag of Cafe Lusso I got with my Monolith is my first bag of someone else's espresso. It's OK.

I've been working on my own espresso blend for the new coffee bar. It's not easy when you are looking to commit to a signature flavor experience. I have a friend that moved from Italy 26 years ago who is helping me. I sold him my ECM Giotto when I got the Londinium and he has been buying coffee from me. We have tried lots of different coffees. So far he loves a SO Brazil roasted 10 seconds into 2nd crack the best. Anything I try to add makes him cry "TOO FRUITY!"

I have finally made the decision that blending pre-roast is best. I mixed up a batch of Brazil, Sumatra and Ethiopia last night, roasted it to a nice rolling 2nd and I think I nailed it. I pulled a shot right off the roaster, 15g in, 30g out and it was heavenly. When I woke up this morning, and the thought of that shot emerged from my inadequate memory, I had to take a second and ensure it was not a dream. Once I convinced myself that it actually did happen, I sprung out of bed (carefully) and tried another. Same result. It's everything I am looking for in a shot of espresso. I reached for the mouse to quickly click "Save".

#18: Post by **RyanP** » August 17th, 2017, 3:13 pm

Almico wrote: I have finally made the decision that blending pre-roast is best. I mixed up a batch of Brazil, Sumatra and Ethiopia last night and I think I nailed it. I pulled a shot right off the roaster, 15g in, 30g out and it was heavenly. When I woke up this morning, and the thought of that shot emerged from my inadequate memory, I had to take a second and ensure it was not a dream. Once I convinced myself that it actually did happen, I sprung out of bed (carefully) and tried another. Same result. It's everything I am looking for in a shot of espresso. I reached for the mouse to quickly click "Save".

Looking for beta testers?

#19: Post by **RyanJE** » August 17th, 2017, 3:14 pm

yakster wrote:Chris Tacy (@malachi) has an interesting post on his blog about the state of US espresso blends and how their quality and focus has fallen off over the years that seems related.

http://godshot.blogspot.com/2017/04/ope ... anies.html

Maybe that's why the Italian espresso thread is getting so much traction.

Italian Coffees. Lets talk about Kimbo, Danesi, Lavazza, Caffe motta, Illy

Actually I find it worse for coffees sold for brew. I get a higher frequency of unmanageable coffees there, meaning, under developed, baked, etc...

#20: Post by **maigre** » August 18th, 2017, 1:47 am

CwD wrote:I hate this "lemon juice" comparison. I absolutely love straight lemon juice. It's lemony and sweet, not just acidic. A lemon juice coffee sounds fantastic.

Underextracted or underdeveloped coffee tastes more spoiled sour than lemon juice sour. Well developed light roasts can be fruity, which I prefer to what people traditionally mean with "balanced". But with the "*NB: Lest you think I'm advocating for dark roasts, I think one can easily create balanced, well-developed roasts dropped before first crack is complete." comment at the end, my take was more roasting and brewing it so a fruity coffee tastes like, well, fruit instead of a concentrated acid of that fruit.

I'm glad you made this point. I'm with you. It is fruit, after all.

I wonder if there's some parallel with fruit in how people like their coffee. If you took 100 people who like low acid white nectarines more than they do sweet/tart yellow ones, would most prefer sweeter, more roasted coffees to juicy sweet/tart third wave ones? And vice versa? This sort of experiment could be taken in all sorts of directions. People who put sugar on their fruit vs. those who don't. Those who like acidic oranges to those who don't. People who have a big sweet tooth to those who don't.