Large Ceramics are Difficult

We've been working for the past 4 months with a ceramics factory to make our water tank and drip tray out of porcelain. The sample they made for us were great, and the price was good (about $7 for both parts). Unfortunately, they've now tried twice to make the parts using the "mass production process" and both times, what we've received has been warped enough that they won't slide into the metal rails of our espresso machine.

The problem, and we've seen this before, is that samples are often made using a process for one-offs (pressure casting), but after you order, a different manufacturing process is used for quantity (slip casting). You don't necessarily get the same result.

We had a much more expensive bid from another company ($23.70 for both parts) that we'd passed on previously, but their quality was great, so we've gone back to them. We've decided to use them now, so that we don't add more delays, and keep working with "slip casting" ceramics companies to see if someone can make our vessels well and cheaply with that process.

The lead time of this new company is 60 days, which unfortunately means that the ceramics will arrive mid-to-late August. That's going to (sigh) put out our DE1 deliveries until then, since an espresso machine that has no water tank is of limited use.

With luck, this will be the worst delay we encounter, and everything will have arrived by then, and we can just slip the ceramic parts in.

Sorry for the bad news, guys. Manufacturing is not easy.

decent_espresso wrote:We had a much more expensive bid from another company ($23.70 for both parts) that we'd passed on previously, but their quality was great, so we've gone back to them. We've decided to use them now, so that we don't add more delays, and keep working with "slip casting" ceramics companies to see if someone can make our vessels well and cheaply with that process.

Very sorry to hear about these frustrations, John. Let me just say, though, how much I appreciate your "biting the bullet" and stepping up to avoid further delays. As someone who is currently without any espresso setup and is eagerly awaiting his DE1+, I can say this means a lot. It also says a lot about your commitments to your customers. I really think people will increasingly recognize this and that it will pay off in the long run.

decent_espresso wrote:Large Ceramics are Difficult

Sorry for the bad news, guys. Manufacturing is not easy.

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Getting a supply chain going is a complete nightmare. While Design is challenging, in relative terms, most issues are in one's control. The excruciating aspect of establishing a supply chain is the opposite. The only thing you can do is flush the supplier, but this is as rewarding as having your Candy Land game piece go back to square one. And picking suppliers can involve the same level of strategy of this game per wiki.

wiki wrote: Due to the design of the game, there is no strategy involved: players are never required to make choices, just follow directions. The winner is predetermined by the shuffle of the cards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candy_Land

Hang in there - I'm 1MM% behind you!

This is the first photo I've posted of our new internal design as a real machine. We totally reconceived the insides after we found our November machine wasn't at a high enough evolutionary level.

In this photo, you can see (1) the machine opens up quite easily for complete access (2) the silicone insulated hot water and steam heaters (3) totally redesigned and much lighter group head [for faster temperature change responsiveness] and quicker warmup (4) much more internal space and reduced complexity.

We still have some work to do to organize the tubing better, to test and re-test everything again before we "pull the trigger" on the sheet metal order (which FYI takes 35 days to manufacture) and the mixing chambers (which have been refined to lower mould costs).

decent_espresso wrote:This is the first photo I've posted of our new internal design as a real machine. We totally reconceived the insides after we found our November machine wasn't at a high enough evolutionary level.

In this photo, you can see (1) the machine opens up quite easily for complete access (2) the silicone insulated hot water and steam heaters (3) totally redesigned and much lighter group head [for faster temperature change responsiveness] and quicker warmup (4) much more internal space and reduced complexity.

We still have some work to do to organize the tubing better, to test and re-test everything again before we "pull the trigger" on the sheet metal order (which FYI takes 35 days to manufacture) and the mixing chambers (which have been refined to lower mould costs).

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Out of curiosity, what material is the tubing?

PTFE (4mm OD, 2mm ID)

Thank you. Yeah I guess 2 mm should do the trick!

It's best if the ID is as small as possible so the volume of water between the water heater and the grouphead is kept to a minimum. This allows for better temperature control. There is no problem with pressure loss as we measure the pressure very close to the grouphead and the pumps compensate for any losses in the water path.

For those following this thread, I'm looking for some advice. Currently, I don't have a home espresso machine so am looking for my first. I'm venturing even further down the home barista rabbit hole and have been looking at the Breville Infuser mainly due to the pre-infusion feature but price is a side benefit. Also under consideration are Ms. Silvia and the CC1.

I know that with grinders, it's get the best your budget allows. For me, that was the Sette 270W which I think can grow with me over the next few years.

My question for the forum is...would the DE or DE+ be a good first espresso machine? I'm a technophile so the appeal is obvious but I'm also intrigued by the ability to simulate the profiles of the LMLM and GS3s that my specialty coffee friends have and even the Slayer I played with at the SCA expo. Could this be a great first/last machine?

I guess it depends. With coffee there are always a lot of variables, and the more options your machine offers you, the better you can optimize the output. However, an unexperienced user will probably be overwhelmed by the options a high quality/commercial machine has.

What that means is, you will have so much flexibility with a DE1+ that dialing in coffees will be hard at best.

That being said, I do think that it is best to have as many options as possible, and that will get you a harder but quicker learning curve. Just be prepared to spend a lot in trial and error at the beginning.