I asked this same question years ago and got a similar variety of answers and am still unsure.

Yes, upgrading my grinder helped. But the machine seems more significant than people let on. My old, cheap Breville was truly the bottleneck in the process, it was literally incapable of pulling passable espresso. I upgraded to the BDB and it was more significant of an improvement than people said an upgrade to the machine before the grinder could achieve. But even having upgraded grinders over the years, there is still something magical about the shots I sometimes get at one of my favorite coffee shops that cannot be explained by the delta in grinder or even barista skill (otherwise, you'd figure I'd get lucky and match it every 1 in 1000 shots at least). There's something about the beautiful shiny La Marzocco on their countertop that costs as much as my car. Sometimes what they call espresso is like a totally different drink entirely, than what I am able to make at home using their beans on a pretty good grinder and a pretty good home machine.

That's why I long for something like a Linea Mini or GS3. But, I cannot justify putting one of those on my kitchen counter when that same amount of cash should go to upgrading my kitchen counter.

iploya wrote:That's why I long for something like a Linea Mini or GS3. But, I cannot justify putting one of those on my kitchen counter when that same amount of cash should go to upgrading my kitchen counter.

I can. Hmmm... lets' see... dream espresso machine or new kitchen counter? It's a no brainer. No counter.

In seriousness...Thing is, after re configuring my machine's existing plumbing for flow profiling, the biggest drawbacks I had with it, I addressed... (Plumbing and remote mounted rotary pump). With those two things in place, I have a full flow profiler, as temp stable as a saturated brew group, and as quiet as the machines at the shops. So I have found myself and my life drifting off to other priorities than my espresso gear.

Other than coolness factor of a prestigious brand, or the joy of trying something new and different (I've had the BDB since it came out more than eight years ago), I can't think of anything I am doing without. So as I said, I have moved on to other interests and priorities in life.



-Peter

Everyone has some sort of "ceiling" where they are happy with what they have. To be fair, if you're on this forum (sorry for generalizing) we should all be thankful for what we have.

I.e. my car drives me from A to B and doesn't break down. It's a 2012 Ford Focus. I've never thought of upgrading or have I spent any time in 9 years thinking about a new car. Plenty of my co-workers spend time and money on new cars for better looks, speed, etc. But there's other forums for them.....

On the espresso....I might reach my "ceiling" with a BDB. What's in the cup will determine that, but mentally I'm happy with the purchase and trust I won't be looking at a new machine next year (2022 though... ?) . I don't know how I feel about the grinder, because A) I don't have a perception on what difference it makes, and B) I "feel" it's high enough quality for my own tastes (learning) and desires at the time.

I've driven a 6 speed Focus ST. It was fun, better performance, better style, etc. In no way did I want to buy it. If I tried a Niche, and it did produce a noticeably better cup (I already know it looks nice), there's a good chance I'll want it. Again, I don't know I could tell a cup to cup change, and have no current itch to find out. But it might become one, if someone can convince me. Either a 270 and Niche owner, or if a grinder shows up on my doorstep. Wouldn't that be nice.

tennisman03110 wrote:What's really the difference between espresso machines?

This is a great basic question, and I think it deserves a similar to the point answer: Convenience and consistency.

All espresso machines use some type of metal filter basket, and they all push hot water through it, yielding espresso. So in that context, there is absolutely no difference between any two espresso machines. Drilling down, there are other features to consider such as noise level, thermal stability, plumbed in versus tank, build quality, durability, automatic vs manual operation, software controlled versus pure mechanical, and some advanced features such as pressure or flow control.

You can and should do research, but you will never appreciate all of the subtle differences between different categories of machines and between manufacturers and models within a category until you have hands on experience with several. I recommend beginning your home barista journey with inexpensive and modest equipment, and also a machine that is easy to resell (e.g. Cafelat Robot or BDB). Depending on your own preferences, you may decide that you do or you don't care about the differences. Go from there.

tennisman03110 wrote:Everyone has some sort of "ceiling" where they are happy with what they have. To be fair, if you're on this forum (sorry for generalizing) we should all be thankful for what we have.

I.e. my car drives me from A to B and doesn't break down. It's a 2012 Ford Focus. I've never thought of upgrading or have I spent any time in 9 years thinking about a new car. Plenty of my co-workers spend time and money on new cars for better looks, speed, etc. But there's other forums for them.....

On the espresso....I might reach my "ceiling" with a BDB. What's in the cup will determine that, but mentally I'm happy with the purchase and trust I won't be looking at a new machine next year (2022 though... ?) . I don't know how I feel about the grinder, because A) I don't have a perception on what difference it makes, and B) I "feel" it's high enough quality for my own tastes (learning) and desires at the time.

I've driven a 6 speed Focus ST. It was fun, better performance, better style, etc. In no way did I want to buy it. If I tried a Niche, and it did produce a noticeably better cup (I already know it looks nice), there's a good chance I'll want it. Again, I don't know I could tell a cup to cup change, and have no current itch to find out. But it might become one, if someone can convince me. Either a 270 and Niche owner, or if a grinder shows up on my doorstep. Wouldn't that be nice.

That is a reasonable analogy in terms of price and determining when to "get off the bus" or budget ceiling, however the assumption that you get more if you pay more is not entirely true above a certain threshold. You might find a machine for $2500 which you like more than one that cost $8000.

Often there is a difference between machines if you want there to be. That is ...

My Dad loved his $100 Radio Shack speakers compared to my $800 B&Ws, but he just refused to care. I know he could hear the difference. ("Dad.. listen to those cymbals." )

If you are really want to explore the taste profiles of espresso (light to dark roasting), the machine makes a huge difference; as does the grinder and the beans. And that's why there are umpteen threads on HB.

I've come to believe that E61, solid 9-bar extraction -> non-optimum ... flow/pressure management, data measurement -> optimum. Just one opinion.. so "good" machines in my view (under $3kUS) are things like Breville DB, Robot, Flair, most electric levers, Decent offerings.

def wrote:That is a reasonable analogy in terms of price and determining when to "get off the bus" or budget ceiling, however the assumption that you get more if you pay more is not entirely true above a certain threshold. You might find a machine for $2500 which you like more than one that cost $8000.

This is especially true when new/emerging technology arrives on the scene. It used to be that people would pony up for a GS/3 or Speedster or Slayer because they have saturated brew groups and saturated brew groups removed the need for cooling and heating flush rituals and final guess work associated with e61's. Now, emerging technology has brought out "actively heated group" machines like the BDB and DE, which also do away with cooling flush, heating flush, and final guess work on temperature. You use them like the saturated group machines. And the reports are that they are at least as good. (Maybe better, but we are talking about very small differences here... fractions of a degree).

-Peter

iploya wrote:But even having upgraded grinders over the years, there is still something magical about the shots I sometimes get at one of my favorite coffee shops that cannot be explained by the delta in grinder or even barista skill (otherwise, you'd figure I'd get lucky and match it every 1 in 1000 shots at least). There's something about the beautiful shiny La Marzocco on their countertop that costs as much as my car. Sometimes what they call espresso is like a totally different drink entirely, than what I am able to make at home using their beans on a pretty good grinder and a pretty good home machine.

That's why I long for something like a Linea Mini or GS3.

This makes me smile, because I have obsessed for about 10 years over espresso from one shop, dropped over $10k in equipment so far (including the grinder my favorite coffee shop uses), matched beans, dose, etc and still cannot regularly pull these unicorn godshots that I regularly receive there. No RDT, WDT, dist tools there, just some extra magic that can't be purchased or even explained.

This is actually what I love about espresso, and why I keep playing.

rpc415 wrote:I have obsessed for about 10 years over espresso from one shop, dropped over $10k in equipment so far (including the grinder my favorite coffee shop uses), matched beans, dose, etc and still cannot regularly pull these unicorn godshots that I regularly receive there.

My experience is the opposite of yours. Although I live near and frequent some of the most renowned coffee shops in London, I have preferred my own espresso for years: really since I matched my Londinium L1 with a Monolith Flat.

This all is the reason why I'm drawn to small lever machines and things like Decent DE-1. You can get exceptional results with relatively small investment. High end commercial machines might give me the possibility to do the same consistently pulling multiple shots back-to-back. But you need to really invest a lot at that point. To each their own and one just has to find the right compromise to make.