HB wrote:Er, just because I don't agree the test was flawed doesn't mean I'm not listening.

It's certainly possible we would have had a different outcome had you been there to dial in the Vesuvius. Then again, the most experienced person (Lem Butler) among the participants chose the Vesuvius and the least experienced person (Jeff Barnett) chose the Pro 700, so maybe the outcome had more to do with the participant preferences than equipment? Feel free to pick whatever rationale best suits your confirmation bias... or hold your own shootout and post your own results.

I'll also point out that Dan said in his review Lem preferred the Vesuvius shots he was pulling over the Pro 700 shots the majority preferred.

HB wrote:Lem and I discussed this particular point, debating the merits of an espresso that emphasizes a coffee's uniqueness (namely fruit notes on the Vesuvius) versus an espresso that favors an overall balanced approach (namely the sweet, crowd-friendly Pro 700). While Lem argued for fidelity to a coffee's strengths as the most important factor, other participants and I favored the more balanced approach.

I wasn't there so can't say which of those particular shot pairings I would have preferred. Based on my experience with light SO fruity coffees and multiple standard E61 group machines and now the Vesuvius I suspect I may have been in Lem's camp, then again maybe not those particular shot pairings. I do know for a certainly I can and do pull SO shots of both washed and natural processed light roasted coffees on the Vesuvius I much prefer over any I could pull on multiple standard E61 group machines. My goal is both highlighting the fruits and at the same time with smooth sweetness and balance. The beauty of the Vesuvius (or GS/3 MP Strada or Slayer) is you can tweak the pressure profile for a shot for your taste preferences. Pulled one of my best (to me) shots yet of light City roasted Esmeralda Geisha when I got home this afternoon, a shot to almost make me cry tears of delicious joy. (Have a little under 1/2lb left in my home freezer, the last didn't ALL go to the Cyncra-Lever-Vesuvius shootout last month! )

To be clear experimenting with various pressure profiles I've also pulled some shots I'd most definitely NOT prefer over a standard E61 group machine!

Basically i think that if someone write something like that "I intentionally don't read the owner's manual, since I realize many buyers skip this important step" it means that it's not a review but it should be a normal post like every end users do.

If i read that "Given my relative inexperience with this new espresso machine, I programmed a spring powered lever type profile: rise to 6 bar, peak at 9 bar, trail off to 7 bar" i have to say that probabily in US the the Spring lever machines are different from the rest of the world. From my little experience i have found that the pressure profile of an espresso spring lever machines are, preinfusion around 1,3/1,5 bars it depend from the boiler working pressure, when you release the lever the peak is around 11/12 bars it depend from the brand of the machine, some work at higher pressure, than the pressure go down to 0 bars. Well of course if the setting of the Vesuvius is the same of the one used on La Marzocco, of course the result of the brewing should be the same if something is not wrong.

I have to repeat that on the spring lever machine the weight and grind of the coffee must be different from the ones used on the standard machines and I have to add also that on the on our E61 group version the mechanical preinfusion is disabled, so if you use the same pressure profile of other standard E61 machines with the same coffee, same grind and same weight for sure the final result will be not the same. Of course this features is mentioned on the owner manual.

Of course if you leave the owner manual in the box and you have never read seen a brochure of the Vesuvius, someone can write something like that "Rather than risk ruining a shot, I got into the habit of filling the tank a couple times an hour." Well i have to say that the Vesuvius is equipped with a system called Last Shot Protection, it means that you will finish your shot always even if the minimum level in the tank is reached. I have to say that i have send an email explain this features but the "review" was not modifed.

At this point i can say that to make a real review, how make it should know the machine, study the machine and if something is not clear ask to the company clarification before post any words otherwise everybody could encounter some problems.

The good thing is that if someone would make a test La Marzocco EP VS Profitec 700 Pro the result is already known.

Finally i'm happy to say that our customers read the manual, ask information, share their experience on the Vesuvius forum, but the most important things is that our customer listen.
Ciao
Paolo Cortese

Since Paolo has mentioned the same concern about the owner's manual as Dave, I've re-read what I wrote and agree my comment was misleading. Please see the correction below in italics:

HB wrote:As a part of the review process, I intentionally don't initially read the owner's manual, since I realize many buyers skip this important step. The other reason is that like many new owners, I'm too excited about getting started to pore over 20 pages of documentation before I plug it in.

Of course I've read the owners manual since then. As for my comment about the water tank, please note the context (emphasis added):

HB wrote:With the demanding use of serving a large crowd, I found the water tank needed to be filled even though it's halfway full. Rather than risk ruining a shot, I got into the habit of filling the tank a couple times an hour. If this were my home setup, I'd definitely take the extra time of plumbing the Vesuvius in. The driptray has a drainhole for waste water that's capped when delivered, but given the driptray's small capacity, plumbing it in is worth the extra effort.

Indeed my comment about "ruining a shot" was misleading and I should have said "running out of water unexpectedly", which more accurately explains my concern since I was preparing back-to-back drinks. I have corrected it.

Compass Coffee wrote:My third stage 5sec 12 bar sounds high but with 400 pump acceleration really just barely touches 12 bar then drops to 9 bar stage, then 8 then 7 then 6 to finish...

Does the Vesuvius documentation tell you what the pump acceleration settings mean? Does a pump acceleration of 400 correspond to a rate of increase in the RPM or pressure?

FWIW, I tried to reproduce your favored profile with your Koke SO on my tricked-out GS/3 with manually-operated gear pump. Not easy to manually hit the pressure numbers and times exactly, and I can't accelerate from one pressure to another as fast as I think your Vesuvius does. Going to add Arduino control so I can do that. Nonetheless, I liked the profile.

Peppersass wrote:Does the Vesuvius documentation tell you what the pump acceleration settings correspond to? Does a pump acceleration of 400 correspond to a documented rate of increase in RPM or pressure?

No, manual simply says: "Pump acceleration: speed of response to change. Values above 700 have no effect. Changing value may require change to pump PID settings"

That's it, all it says about it. Yeah I wish it went into some technical specificity! (Also annoyingly they have the pdf manual protected so can't cut & paste text so had to manually type it! )

Suggested default is 400. I ran it 700 for a spell few weeks back and it seemed to accelerate between stages faster. However with a blind just now tested and settings 100/400/700 all seem to cross 9 bar approximately the same ~6 seconds. This was with my backflush profile of only one long 9 bar stage. But the pump doesn't sound quite the same each setting, lower value pump accel' doesn't sound as aggressive. Oh the part in red was red in the manual, again lacking details of what pump PID settings may require a change!

I would love to see how the Vesuvius and the Strega match up.