Upcoming induction espresso machine (Heylo) - Page 4

#31: Post by **malling** » January 31st, 2023, 11:15 am

Graymatters wrote:Sure, but there's a difference between home-friendly and commercial only and, FWIW, he did specifically mention the steam module (which is supposed to be half the width of the milk module).

Anywho, I get that size is a factor for a lot of people, but there are already people out there with larger machines in their home, which is evidence that the size isn't a non-starter for many of those that are willing and able to spend beaucoup bucks on an espresso machine.

We will se how big the steam module really is when released.

Commercial use has never stopped anyone from installing it in their homes, there will always be people who install commercial equipment in their home. But even if you use something not intended for it doesn't exactly make it any more a home machine/equipment you just use it outside its intended use. Home machines are generally meant as machines designed and built for the home user hence the name, in Europe there quite the difference in regulations between home products vs commercial. You can use commercial sure but still don't change these are commercial products and those are designed with a different end goal and full fill other regulations and requirements also many insurance require you to purchase an add on insurance for such equipment as it's not covered by a standard insurance.

January 31st, 2023, 12:35 pm

malling wrote:Commercial use has never stopped anyone from installing it in their homes...

Correct, and the home-use hurdles with this machine aren't terribly high, hence my question of the "commercial only" declaration.

#33: Post by **gscace** » January 31st, 2023, 11:10 pm

baldheadracing wrote:The machine has been in development for a while, and has been delayed, but is now in early production and will ship soon. It is a commercial machine. In the future, it will be interesting to see if the technology comes down to home use - where induction might be a game changer. On the milk side, the machine doesn't steam milk, but froths the milk using a venturi to incorporate air. No water in your milk, and microfoamed milk at any temperatue is possible, even cold.

Retail price in Europe is 5k Euro per group for the espresso side; another 5k for the milk module.

John Gordon (not the guy in the thumbnail) explains the machine in 11 minutes:
video

FYI, Heylo is part of the VEA group - Carimali, Elektra, Bellezza, etc. ... This machine has no relation to the Fenice (failed Kickstarter induction machine).

Well this is fun to see. And yes I'm in on it. I've been working on it with Carimali, Aga, John since 2019. John explained it pretty well and I'll add a little. Induction lets you temperature profile really repeatably. It's super energy efficient because there are no convective losses and you don't have to keep things hot, except for the group (which is insulated to minimize heat loss). The machine idles, then heats up in a matter of seconds when you want to make coffee. Temperature reproducibility is at least as good as anything on the market (I should know). What people may not know about me is that over the last 10 or so years I've spent a lot of effort in understanding and optimizing how water percolates through coffee beds. This is really important because percolation paths and repeatability have a sh** ton to do with how energy gets transferred to the coffee and how the dissolvable solids get into the cup. It's not trivial! Carimali originally hired me to work on temperature issues, but I've spent a lot of effort in optimizing fluid flow, heat and mass transfer inside this machine. As a result, the machine is super reproducible and makes really good coffee.

-Greg

#34: Post by **gscace** » January 31st, 2023, 11:21 pm

BaristaBoy E61 wrote:I love High-Tech but my eyes just glared over watching this.
Too much tech. What am I going to do with it when some proprietary component goes bad and it's no longer supported?

I'm always thinking about the other end of how am I going to go out of the deal down the road. Who am I going to sell this to?

Sorry, I'm more of an 'Analogue' man. Just give me gauges and a conventional resistive heating element.

Thanks for posting though - It's been fun!

To answer your points:

1) That's sort of the problem with most machinery these days. Carimali has a really big presence in Europe and Asia, They have a big business in superautos. Heylo should be around for a while.

2) Dunno how to answer number 2. Maybe to someone who wants a really good coffee machine?

3) I have a two group machine that is state of the art and requires a 50 Amp 240V supply. to power large boilers with nested control loops. It makes great coffee and I use it to test Scace devices before shipment. My test Heylo draws power only when actually brewing and idles at something rediculously little, enough to keep a circuit board idling and heat an insulated group.

-Greg

#35: Post by **gscace** » January 31st, 2023, 11:28 pm

Tennantscoffee wrote:It *could* be a winner but it will need to bring something to the table that the current products don't...and that will be difficult.

The Aillio Bullet R1 is an induction based coffee roaster and it's a home run because it brings the ability to roast 1k of greens on a standard 110v outlet and it's in a form that you can put under your arm and take somewhere if you want/need. No other roaster does what it does.

Simply making something different doesn't always translate to being useful. Making an induction based espresso machine can work but what will make it's function more useful? Better efficiency? Probably. Is that enough to get people to switch? Probably not.

I think products like this are important. The Decent espresso machine, the Lelit Bianca with flow control, etc are all bringing something to the table that is genuinely *different* than other machines. In the case of Lelit it was bringing a function that was traditionally reserved for much more expensive units down to an affordable price and in the case of Decent it was an unprecedented ability to monitor different aspects of pulling a shot. This will need to do that in order to get a foothold in the espresso world.

The modular aspect is really useful for the commercial market, for a growing business, for serviceability - where modules can be quickly swapped out if necessary, for cafe layout - making a more diffuse space with multiple modules in different places within the shop making different coffees. What is really different about this machine is that pressure, pressure profile, flow control, temperature, and temperature profiling are all adjustable parameters. And the water dispersion through the cake is really good. I have some of the best machines in the world in my coffee lab, and the Heylo is equal to them. Also the Heylo is very efficient, in terms of power consumption. That is not something to sneeze at these days.

-Greg

#36: Post by **gscace** » January 31st, 2023, 11:30 pm

bostonbuzz wrote:$5k euro for a flow, pressure, temperature profiling commercial machine!? Wow. It's going to find its way into people's homes. If it had a built in scale then that would be just about everything you could want. I agree the looks are almost there but not quite. I like how the screen is angled down so it's not in your face too much.

We sort of like its quirky look. Within the development group, we've given the espresso module the name "Steve," coined by Aga, who is wont to say "Steve would like to make you a coffee!"

#37: Post by **gscace** » January 31st, 2023, 11:35 pm

slybarman wrote:how does induction heating differ from a thermoblock?

Induction heating takes place within a magnetic device (such as a pan with magnetic base on an induction stovetop) that is placed within a magnetic field. If it's not magnetic it won't heat up, so only the parts you want to heat get heated - not the surroundings. Power gets applied instantaneously, unlike a thermoblock that must absorb the energy from a heating element and then conduct it through substantial distances to get to the water. The energy flow path in the Heylo's induction element is pretty short and direct, which makes it easier to get super good temperture control and temperature profiling.

-Greg

#38: Post by **gscace** » January 31st, 2023, 11:36 pm

espressoren wrote:My understanding is that with a normal thermoblock you'd have a resistive heater touching the block. When the heater warms up it transfers heat to the block over time. With induction, you run magnetic flux through the block and this heats the block itself.

I imagine the advantage in practice comes down to design. A resistive heater can heat a thermoblock quite quickly if it is small and there is low thermal inertia. See something like the Breville thermojets that are ready in 3 seconds. As you increase the mass it takes more time but the temperature of the block is also more stable. My hunch is the induction can heat more mass faster than resistive contact heating can.

You are correct.

#39: Post by **gscace** » January 31st, 2023, 11:40 pm

ira wrote:If I was designing a induction based machine, I'd figure out the shortest length of and smallest diameter tubing that I can heat to boiling at the highest flow needed. That will give the fastest response time and least energy usage. There should be no reason for thermal mass in an induction heated system except maybe to even out the heat a bit and prevent spot boiling. I'm not saying that can be done, but if the modeling of the thermal path and power of the coils are done well enough, that should be an optimal solution.

The implementation in the Heylo is quite nuanced. Outcome is extremely good.

-Greg

#40: Post by **gscace** » January 31st, 2023, 11:43 pm

espressoren wrote:Haha yeah, induction is definitely better for ranges. What I don't know is how much better induction is compared to resistive heating when the heating element is attached with thermal glue or embedded in the thing it is trying to heat.

Induction heating is more targeted and faster than a heating element. Conduction time constants (thermal diffusivity) is much reduced with induction systems. Power consumption is much less

-Greg