Flushing a Livia 90S before a pull.

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kris772
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#1: Post by kris772 »

I changed the title of this thread a few times. Tried lower pressure but back to 1.2-1.25 peak.

Rebound is quick.
Life is too short for bad espresso! - Thunk-ed, NOT stirred!

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Jeff
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#2: Post by Jeff »

How are you measuring the brew temperature?

I'm not sure what "surfing" means on a Livia 90, if that's what you're talking about.

kris772 (original poster)
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#3: Post by kris772 (original poster) » replying to Jeff »

probe:
Brew temperature sensing for Livia 90S

(later edit - don't do this) Surfing - using Ideas from Dan's short video - specifically when machine has been idle (or after rebound) do longer flush to get past steam burbling and sound (5-6 seconds), pause (grind and dose). shorter flush (watch meter). (Ideally, here I would like to see the meter dip below 200.) Pull.
Life is too short for bad espresso! - Thunk-ed, NOT stirred!

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Jeff
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#4: Post by Jeff »

I'd develop a simple flush routine based on flavor in the cup. It sounds like you've got a "dragon".

You may have better luck with a "flush-and-go" rather than a "flush-and-wait" routine with your machine.

/hx-love-ma ... ature.html

I wouldn't change the pressurestat setting from "default" until you were consistently making good espresso with it. The Livia 90 was very popular in its day, suggesting that most people were able to reliably get good shots from it without jumping through hoops. The past 15-20 years have changed expectations from those appropriate for an HX to the "automatic" gratification of a close-coupled or thermoblock group.

It doesn't look like there is much mass to moderate the brew temperature compared to an E61-style group head. I don't think that "numbers" from an E61 will help much. You might read what people did with the Livia 90 and the similar Bezzera back when they were popular.

kris772 (original poster)
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#5: Post by kris772 (original poster) »

edit - yes, Dragon - flush and go. Question is how long to flush...
Life is too short for bad espresso! - Thunk-ed, NOT stirred!

kris772 (original poster)
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#6: Post by kris772 (original poster) »

(edit deleted more ineffectual rambling - still working out timing of flush...)

So, thanks, Jeff.

EDIT: I asked Pasquini and they said this:
"For machine warm up I would say there is no need to flush within the first hour as the machine's grouphead is still absorbing heat but after the first hour you can run maybe 2-3 seconds of water through the group before extraction to help saturate the brew tube and compensate for any headspace in the tube due to evaporation. "

That does yield a slightly bitter brew. temp was constant at about 202. Nice chocolaty aftertaste, though.

That presents a bit of a problem, though. I turned it on and 20min later (no flush) locked in 17.4g and pipe temps during pull were locked at 213 (per Fuji PXR3)(K wire). Taste was not bitter, but soft and smooth, quite drinkable, but lacked interesting notes. So I assume the grouphead absorbed all that excess temp. But where are my notes?
Life is too short for bad espresso! - Thunk-ed, NOT stirred!

kris772 (original poster)
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#7: Post by kris772 (original poster) »

Always looking to learn more about this machine...

I rigged up a rubber "backflush" thing with a small hole in it and put it in a common double basket. Greg, eat your heart out! - well not really, but sorta!!!

I warmed up the machine, flushed past the steam (~5 seconds), and 3 more seconds to supposedly lower temperature, and then locked in the contraption above with a TC between the gasket and the basket lip (that process takes about 5 seconds) and did a simulated pull for maybe 15-20 seconds. (~60g)(fast)

I was aghast as the temperature was way low and only got up to 200 very near the end. Even though it was fast. That would have been very sour indeed.
I ran a few more tests allowing it to warm up for 12 min each time between pulls. (machine had been on all day).
For tomorrow for first pull, I will flush 5 seconds, lock, and pull, and see what it tastes like(beans but no TC).
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EDIT: Mmmm smooth. I have been (way) over-flushing. Did 5 secs and then lock and pull. And this machine had been warming up for about 3 hours. GH Monte Carlos 18.5g slow ristretto, need to loosen. EDIT yeah 1 click - 40g in 15 sec from 1st drop. Nice. Bold.
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further edit - Pasquini's words are starting to ring more true... "2-3 seconds".
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HXs have tiny, no, teeny HXs!

Fuji PID used for reading. K tc. Boiler pressure peaks at 1.2-1.25 . Brew head idles at about 214F. Brew head on Livia 90S / Bezzera BZ99 is part of the boiler attached/welded along a 3.5" arc - ergo quick heating. Brew head is VERY close to boiler.
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edit test deleted here and posted in next post in this thread.


Life is too short for bad espresso! - Thunk-ed, NOT stirred!

kris772 (original poster)
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#8: Post by kris772 (original poster) »

I know this will annoy some here but perhaps a few Livia owners can benefit.
I ran a little test in the previous post. clipped from there.

I am continuing to test: from a fully warmed machine (probably anything after 45min):
1) flush 4 seconds, pause timed 2 min, flush 2 seconds and lock and pre-infuse 3s/6s and pull. Noticeably more flavor and notes.
2) flush 4 seconds, pause timed 1 min 30 sec, flush 2 seconds and PI and pull. Not as good as (1).
3) flush 4 seconds, pause timed 1 min, flush 2 seconds and PI and pull. Better... but edge sour.
4) flush 4 seconds, pause timed 2 min 30 sec, flush 2 seconds and PI and pull. Chocolate.

What all this means to me is that i have been initial flushing too long (5-8 seconds) before pull. Utilizing the machine's quick rebound markedly helps flavor.
Pressure 1.2-1.25 peak. Minimum 45 minute warm-up but that is really all you need. I tried lowering the pressure but that is a boondoggle as the rebound just doesn't succeed. YMMV. hth!
Beans used were Red Bird Mountain High at about 6 days, frozen. I have not been fabulously pleased with this roast/blend as it has seemed a bit hard to get favor and notes, but I realize now a big part of that was my fault - operator end of the pf handle. I understood its(the Livia) ability to quickly rebound but did not realize how badly a long introductory flush was limiting what I could get out of it.
18.4g ->~30g ~14 sec from first drip after PI. Common "18g" double filter basket. Thunked, NOT DWT'ed. Finger level, minimalist tamp.
Life is too short for bad espresso! - Thunk-ed, NOT stirred!

w3agle

#9: Post by w3agle »

pause timed 2 min
what is the "pause timed x min in reference to?

kris772 (original poster)
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#10: Post by kris772 (original poster) » replying to w3agle »


Just means I set a timer for 2:30 and then start it. Then ususally go do grind/dose.
Life is too short for bad espresso! - Thunk-ed, NOT stirred!