jeffg2020 wrote:Not really my cup of tea, so to speak. I'm a tech guy -- I spend too much time in front of screens as it is. I'm sure this machine is as wonderful as the review suggests, but I'm not tempted by the idea of a hybrid computer / espresso machine. "Download" this, "upgrade" that - that's exactly what I want to get away from when I make my morning cuppa. Different strokes...

Don't understand. If it works correctly when you get it you don't have to change anything.

One of my PCs is running W7; it works fine, I don't feel the need to change it. Likewise I use Office XP; it does what I want, I don't need to upgrade. I still use Quicken 6 from about 1997 despite it not being year 2000 compliant and apparently not working under W7 and later - it still works under W10. Basically I don't 'upgrade' unless there is a good reason to - a coffee machine will be no different.

AIUI, there will be a new group head cover with 4 buttons on it to operate the machine in order to get UL compliance. In that case you don't have to use the tablet and there will be no visible indication that there's a computer or several involved.

Personally I don't get the fascination with tweaking profiles and watching the flow rate during the shot - I'm interested in the machine because it looks as if it will make repeatable good coffee with just a button press and not have to mess with manually guessing flushing, pre-infusion etc. It also looks as if it will be pretty energy efficient, and it has a small footprint.

jeffg2020 wrote:Not really my cup of tea, so to speak. I'm a tech guy -- I spend too much time in front of screens as it is. I'm sure this machine is as wonderful as the review suggests, but I'm not tempted by the idea of a hybrid computer / espresso machine. "Download" this, "upgrade" that - that's exactly what I want to get away from when I make my morning cuppa. Different strokes...

I agree and wouldn't enjoy using a machine with this much interface complexity. Also the average person makes 2-3 coffees per day (various forum surveys over the years). I don't believe with that volume they are going to appreciate or use the interface complexity. Perhaps when they first get the machine...but after that they will just want to press a button and make coffee.

I do have a concern that longer term there will be plenty to go wrong that won't necessarily be easy to diagnose or fix.

DaveC wrote:I agree and wouldn't enjoy using a machine with this much interface complexity. Also the average person makes 2-3 coffees per day (various forum surveys over the years). I don't believe with that volume they are going to appreciate or use the interface complexity. Perhaps when they first get the machine...but after that they will just want to press a button and make coffee.

The machine has an easy mode for this, which is the first thing you see. It's only as you dive into the menus that you see graphs and advanced functions, there's always a way to go back to easy mode. Find a profile you like, set it and forget it as Ronco said. I'm more concerned that the presence of advanced functions will turn away people with this mindset anyway. The product isn't really marketed to them, but it would be nice to see the company succeed outside of its main target market.

Jake_G wrote:Regarding soupy pucks:

From Coffee Forums UK posted a few days ago.
(emphasis added)

It will be interesting to see what else these changes bring about. Particularly, if there are tuning parameters in the updated firmware that optimize V1.1 temperature response at the expense of V1.0 performance, due to the reduced thermal mass of the new components. Hopefully there will be a check for this and a method of getting updates, while keeping the response in check. I can't imagine not given the incredible transparency of the design process and continued support for early adopters. Continued innovation is good, but the leading edge is also the bleeding edge...

Cheers!

- Jake

Very profound last sentence to this iterative process. Significant design tweaks already for a second run and there's already market fragmentation? Am I reading that right?

It seems unlikely to me one would be able to ignore new software releases. Silicon Valley has upgradeitis. No doubt there would be updates, patches, etc. At some point old versions would cease to be supported. And I'm sure the upgrades would provide value-add. But to me it seems likely it would be like owning a hybrid iPhone / espresso machine.

Now if OTOH you can "ignore" the computer aspect, then why buy this machine? That's its distinctive advantage, right? W/out the tablet interface, is it better than a LM, La Spaz, etc.? Hey, maybe it is, but those guys have been dealing w/ machines and their issues a lot longer. Maybe the differentiator then becomes price, I don't know.

jeffg2020 wrote:It seems unlikely to me one would be able to ignore new software releases. Silicon Valley has upgradeitis. No doubt there would be updates, patches, etc. At some point old versions would cease to be supported.

The DE1+ is a single purpose machine, not a platform like the iPhone... at this hypothetical point in the future, all major bugs have probably been found and addressed and there would be no reason to continue to update it.

Some innovations would, of course, require hardware upgrades, such as the thermal stability improvements in 1.1. There is no hard requirement that iterative improvements on firmware for this new hardware would spell the end for 1.0 support.

If Decent discontinued support for v1.0 too early, that would torpedo their reputation and the entire company, so I am not betting on this scenario actually happening.

jeffg2020 wrote:Now if OTOH you can "ignore" the computer aspect, then why buy this machine? That's its distinctive advantage, right? W/out the tablet interface, is it better than a LM, La Spaz, etc.?

1 - it promises consistent, high quality coffee with a single button push - very similar convenience to a capsule machine but producing high quality coffee.

2 - It has a small footprint compared to most prosumer machines.

3 - It looks likely to have very low power usage compared to the wasteful tanks that are prosumer machines.

4 - It's a lot cheaper than a LM etc (at the moment, but I suspect that might change) - it doesn't have to be better, just comparable which it is claimed to be.

5 - It's not a boring shiny box, it's a boring black one but at least it's a bit different.

Those are reasons enough for me to have ordered one - I don't have a lot of interest in playing with profiles; once it's set up I hope to be able to use it in one button mode.

I remember reading a post by John that he programmed his machine to start heating up 30 minutes before he gets out of bed. He mentioned that he prefers it this way to get everything heated up including the portatfilter.

As a DE1+ owner, I've also switched to a schedule in the morning. The reason is primarily the portafilter being cold, but other ancillary parts may also play a factor.

Later in the day, I usually give it about 15mins to warm up, although this is a rough estimate as opposed to an optimal suggestion - still need to test more.

If the portafilter etc aren't warmed thoroughly, the in basket shot temp accuracy goes from the usual +-1degC to roughly +-2degC, with an even bigger initial error (eg. can be 5 degC down). This is no different to classic boiler machines. This isn't a huge concern for dark roasted coffees, but the light coffees I prefer are more sensitive to temp changes, hence the scheduled warmup.

[EDIT Forgot to add] I need to do more experimenting on using a flush (maybe with a blind basket?) to rapidly accelerate the portafilter heating.