Profitec Pro 600 help - espresso is always sour

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CuanMcLuus

#1: Post by CuanMcLuus »

Hi Baristas,
I'm a little lost and hope anyone here can help me.

Most of my shots (well let's say all of them) are in the range of sour to undrinkable sour.

I'm using a new Profitec T64 grinder and Profitec Pro 600. In a first step, I've tried all possible grind sizes leading to an extraction in 15s, up to +1min with pretty much the same result, sour. Even when massively over extracted it's sour.

Temp. is set to 92C and pressure is ~9.5bar. With a in/out ratio of ~1:2 (18g in / 40g out) it's sour. Tamping is consistent with a pressure-regulated tramper and the puck looks good to me (no cracks / holes)

I've already tried 3 different beans. All of them medium to dark roast, 100% arabica:
  • First one is my favourite. I've previously used them with a La Pavoni Professional for ~4 years and never had shots this sour even when over/under extracted. I was unable to get a drinkable shot with them.
  • The second one was sour no matter what I've tried.
  • The third one did have an exception. When i got them and used them the same day, I've got "drinkable" shots without much experimenting (~1:2). I've used them every day now and they changed from drinkable to undrinkable sour in under one week. I've only adjusted the grind size finer since the shots under extracted more each day. I'm now back to where i was before.
Beans 1 and 3 were definitely fresh ~2-4 weeks old. Not so sure with no.2.
I've never had that when i was using the the La Pavoni and a hand grinder, I've sometimes used beans my favourite for way over one month.

I've had crema from bubbly white over perfect long lasting caramel to dark brown. Always sour..

Other things I've tried was increasing/decreasing temp and pump pressure (with same grind size) both leading to even worse shots. Last thing I've tried was using bottled water since it's quite hard here, but i don't see much/any difference.

From my quite long experience with the La Pavoni, something seems terribly off here but i have no idea what... I'm already starting to think there is something wrong with my machine.

Just to make sure, I'm not talking about 'a little off', I'm talking about undrinkable :? :shock: sour.

PS: I also have tried the ECM Cialda Portafilter for ESE Pads
https://www.ecm.de/en/products/details/ ... er-cialda/
The result is very... watery...
It has an 'adjustable spout' and closing it completely improves the taste a little, but far from perfect.
Is it really supposed to be that bad?

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JayBeck

#2: Post by JayBeck » replying to CuanMcLuus »

Sounds like your offset isn't right and you're being very cool. Try Jim's method of calibrating by flash boiling.

Getting accurate shot temperature displays on PIDed double boilers without a thermometer

Bluenoser

#3: Post by Bluenoser »

Turn the brew water PID up 3-5 degrees and see if the taste is better. The PID number is actually a sensor in the brew boiler, but not the temp at the exit of the head. There's an offset that should be programmed in but the offset may not be correct.

Whoops.. sorry didn't read your full post carefully.. you said you adjusted temp. I had this same issue with my new Profitec 500 PID. The stock settings only gave me brew water temps of about 180. I turned the PID up initially, but not enough.. Did you do a BIG temp change on PID?

Sounds like you've done all possible stuff with grind..

Only thing I could think of is to actually measure the brew water temp somehow to see where it is.
..

LObin

#4: Post by LObin »

If it's pressure related (technic, pump, OPV, etc) then it has to be the temperature.
I had similar issues with a very different machine (Londinium 1) and I tried everything possible with very little results. In the end, my thermosiphon was obstructed and the whole system was running cold. Scale is obviously not a factor in your case but something, whether it's the PID settings or not, is most probably causing a cold system/group.

Have you tried contacting profitec?

Here's a quote from Jim Schulman (quoting David Ross) that was very helpful:
another_jim wrote:David Ross, an original alt.coffee member, was fond of saying "all the coffee sees is water at a certain temperature and pressure" If temperature isn't the culprit, the only thing that's left is pressure
LMWDP #592

CuanMcLuus (original poster)

#5: Post by CuanMcLuus (original poster) »

Ok, i tried with different temp. settings:
  • +5°C (@98°C):
    I would say better but still not good. (i'll try to go even higher, but see below)
  • -5°C(@88°C):
    The result looks nice but totally undrinkable. (see picture below)
Edit:
  • +10°C (@103°C):
    Undrinkable
I tried what @JayBeck suggested and went from 98°C up to 104°C. There wasn't much difference from ~100°C to 104°C, i'd say it was boiling at that point.

I've added 2 video links, one for 93°C and 98°C. To me it sounds like there is 'a lot of air in the water?'. If you listen to the 98°C is that normal?
93°C https://photos.app.goo.gl/QiQd84Y3T4zEiah78
98°C https://photos.app.goo.gl/zzneo79bo1zdGtxy9

Also a video of just one random result. That was quite over extracted but still sour.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/EfjFcwgTrKhHZDkKA

Photo of puck before


and after (it's quite wet if i compare it to my old La Pavoni)


And crema from the odd shot @88°C

LObin

#6: Post by LObin »

CuanMcLuus wrote:Ok, i tried with different temp. settings:
  • +5°C (@98°C):
    I would say better but still not good. (i'll try to go even higher, but see below)
  • -5°C(@88°C):
    The result looks nice but totally undrinkable. (see picture below)
Edit:
  • +10°C (@103°C):
    Undrinkable
I tried what @JayBeck suggested and went from 98°C up to 104°C. There wasn't much difference from ~100°C to 104°C, i'd say it was boiling at that point.

I've added 2 video links, one for 93°C and 98°C. To me it sounds like there is 'a lot of air in the water?'. If you listen to the 98°C is that normal?
93°C https://photos.app.goo.gl/QiQd84Y3T4zEiah78
98°C https://photos.app.goo.gl/zzneo79bo1zdGtxy9

Also a video of just one random result. That was quite over extracted but still sour.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/EfjFcwgTrKhHZDkKA

Photo of puck before
<image>

and after (it's quite wet if i compare it to my old La Pavoni)
<image>

And crema from the odd shot @88°C
<image>
The dispersion and water flow seems weird to me. As if the water was cold exiting the group or the pump was faulty... Did you flush a huge amount or water before taking those videos?
When pulling a shot, can you get the brew pressure gauge anywhere near 9 bars?

Other people with PID DB machines might be able to help but... Seems to me like you definitely need to contact the shop you bought the machine from and/or Profitec.
LMWDP #592

CuanMcLuus (original poster)

#7: Post by CuanMcLuus (original poster) »

Did you flush a huge amount or water before taking those videos?
When pulling a shot, can you get the brew pressure gauge anywhere near 9 bars?
I've let it heat up for ~10-15min before taking a each video. Pressure gauge is ~9.5bar when taking a shot or using the blind filter.

Here are 2 more videos where you can clearly see that it's boiling. There is a lot of steam.
This was at 105°C and 108°C just to make sure.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bijFJJYJMBWf5zWS8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/V64GBia6iGdvVyY97

I'll probably contact the shop next week and see what they can do, if there are no other ideas.

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User avatar
Jake_G
Team HB

#8: Post by Jake_G »

CuanMcLuus wrote: I've let it heat up for ~10-15min before taking a each video. Pressure gauge is ~9.5bar when taking a shot or using the blind filter.
Woah, from cold? That group head is a huge chunk of brass.

Leave it on for an hour and then pull some shots. The boiler is up to temp in 15 minutes, but I can assure you, the group is not. Flow through the group is so slow during a shot that the group head pulls the temperature of the water down (or up) to match it by the time the water hits the puck. It takes a long time for the group to get hot enough to make good espresso.

I hope this is your issue, because it's an easy fix. If I misinterpreted your comment, then there is more defective work to be done...

Cheers!

- Jake

LObin

#9: Post by LObin »

Yes. Not sure if you mean 10-15 min in between flushes or from cold but definitely need a solid warmup time. Although you might have done that already...

Could there be air in your thermosiphon? Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATWt2GVzV-w
The dispersion is very different but you can't hear air coming out of the group.

If I were you, I'd try to bleed the air out of the TS through the top nut on the E61. A quick google search will tell you how to proceed. Please make sure to unscrew just enough to let the air (and a bit of water out). You don't want to unscrew more than needed with all that pressure in there. You can pull a shot or use the blank then bleed small amounts (3-5 sec) through the top nut. Wait a bit then repeat. Might take 4-5 times until there is just water coming out of the top nut.
Try this and let us know!
LMWDP #592

jgood

#10: Post by jgood »

Second the advice to really let the machine heat up, if your not doing that. I turn mine on, and then after 45min - 1 hour, I flush the group for a few seconds and leave the portafilter in for another 5 minutes, till it's hot to the touch. Then dry it and proceed.