Profitec Pro 600 help - espresso is always sour - Page 3

Need help with equipment usage or want to share your latest discovery?
korbus

#21: Post by korbus »

At some point, if you feel you have tampered too much with the PID settings, you can return to factory settings by keeping the right button (+) pressed while you power up the machine. After you have reset it, just power off the machine and wait at least 10 secs. On the next power on, it will display "FIL", at which point you should just push the coffee lever all the way up for ~20 sec. and that's it, you're back at the default settings.
In my (limited) experience, the proper heat up and the 3-5 secs warming flush prior to pulling the shot was all that was needed for pulling tasty cups on this machine. No need to alter too much your PID settings. As for temperatures, so far I've only worked in the range of 92-94 deg. Celsius, as this was enough for me.
With some lighter roasts where you feel the default E61 pre-infusion is not enough, you can try the suggestions from this post (#17) by JayBeck, which will give you some leeway with more difficult beans: Profitec Pro 600 dual boiler, now available for pre-order! New Eureka Mignon line in stock!.

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john_ertw

#22: Post by john_ertw »

Have you considered the possibility of an issue with either the grinder or pick preparation? Sounds like you are confident with water temperature and you have tried different beans.

JayBeck

#23: Post by JayBeck »

CuanMcLuus wrote:So i did what Jake_G suggested and set the temp to 99°C and lowered the E1 offset until there was no gurgling left. All tests had ~10min in between, with a good hour of heating up before. Default was set to 15 and i had to lower it to 10. So 5°C lower in total.

I mostly went by sound (gurgling) and steam as the water stream looks very similar at these temperatures imho. There is now almost no to maybe just a little gurgling at 99°C and some clear gurgling at 101°C.

Lowered it back to 94°C and pulled a shot, doing a 3sec warming flush just before the shot like korbus suggested.

Well I'd say that was the best shot with this beans so far..! I kind of fear that i was focused so much on sour & too low temp. that didn't actually experiment that much on lower temperatures. I'm still confused as i tried on lower temperatures (88°C) and it was undrinkable. 88°C would have been these 5°C I've lowered the offset now, so that should've been good. Also i would have confused sour and bitter this whole time..

Well I'll continue to experiment on the current temp. offset and hope that was actually the problem.
The biggest issue was not finding that right offset (that just makes the PID make more sense). It was that you weren't doing a warming flush. An E61 will get a cold nose with all that brass exposed to ambient temps. The E61 is only temp stable when the grouphead is at the target temperature. After a long idle, it needs a warming flush so that the group temp warms up to ~93C. It's likely idling 4C below that.

I think the rule of thumb on an E61 dual boiler is generally a 60 second or so rest between shots and if the machine is idle 5 minutes or so do a very shot warming flush and at 10+ minutes idle do a flush for several seconds.

Bluenoser

#24: Post by Bluenoser »

CuanMcLuus wrote:. Also i would have confused sour and bitter this whole time..
.
Grin.. I've been through that route; having only been at this for less than a year. And hence my earlier comments about verifying the brew water temp. I'm still not sure I can 100% distinguish sour from bitter at times.. just 'bad'..

I've read a ton of forum posts on HB about issues people have with extractions, and I think the number one issue is related to not knowing what their brew water temp was. Adding a thermometer to my E61 group head helped a lot, but it won't compensate for the 'cold' nose syndrome JayBeck mentions. I'm hoping manufacturers correct this glaring deficiency in their machines.

I used to take the portafilter out and clean right after a shot and then not reinsert until the next extraction. By this time it was cool and just the fact it was not there cooled the group head. So the water in the group might be running 200F but it cools significantly when it hits the cooler portafiter. So now, I only remove it for as brief a time as necessary.

CuanMcLuus (original poster)

#25: Post by CuanMcLuus (original poster) »

I didn't change any pid settings other than t1, t2 and now E1. But I've resetted the pid just to make sure.
Btw. thank you for the tip! There is no documentation about the Pro600s default settings and how to reset.

Well anyway, i had to lower the temp. offset again for 5°C to get the same result and i'm sure this improves it. I've got a bottomless portafilter now and I'd say the extractions look 'fine' most of the time. There might be a bit of channeling sometimes but not too bad. Still something i can improve.

With the current extraction I'd say the first sip is very good. But the more i drink of the shot more sour/bitter? it gets. The 2nd and 3rd sip is already a difference. At the bottom it's still quite horrible.

I don't stir it right now, otherwise it's just mix of 'not so good'. Do you stir or not?

What would you change to improve that?

LObin

#26: Post by LObin »

CuanMcLuus wrote:What would you change to improve that?
You're coffee?

Once you've pull the lever on an e61, there isn't much you can do to alter the temp of the group/extraction.
Here's a good read on how to play with the many variables in order to optimize taste in the cup to your liking:

Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste

Here's a very useful "dial-in" guide:
LMWDP #592

CuanMcLuus (original poster)

#27: Post by CuanMcLuus (original poster) »

I would like to give an update on my machine, in case someone else experiences the same issues.
First off thanks to everyone helping me, this is a really amazing, helpful community! I learned a lot about my machine during this process.

I'm finally able to pull consistent and good shots.
There were two main problems:

1.) I mixed up sour and bitter. My coffee was BITTER!! all the time not sour. Even after 4-5 years with a La Pavoni, i was unable to differentiate sour and bitter. Shame on me! I would say 90% of the problem was that i added sugar to my espresso before. During the process with my new machine i stopped doing that, to better identify my problems. I'm sure i was not used to it and that didn't help at all.
Well after these weeks of dialing in, i don't add sugar anymore and i like it! At least there are some health benefits to my mistakes :lol:

2.) The default settings on the Profitec 600 were way too hot. I had to lower E1 by 5°C (default 15°C now 10°C)!! Even with that, t1 is now on 91°C for best results, so E1 could probably be lowered even more by 1-2°C. I'm not sure if this is just my machine or if this is a general problem. Dialing in at 100°C helped a lot to find the correct temp. (after i messed up the first time).

Other nice things to know about the Pro 600:
- To reset the PID settings, press (+) while turning on the machine. This is not documented anywhere (thank you @korbus)
- The 3-5sec warming flush helps a lot. Do it!

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Bluenoser

#28: Post by Bluenoser »

I know I'm beating a dead horse.. but number one freakin' problem with new machines is finding out where the brew water temp is.. even with a DB. Manufacturers need to add a temp sensor somewhere in the group so that users can rule out brew water temp issues with any problems they are having. There are enough variables to control; this one should be easy.