Profitec Pro 500 - need general temperature / flush guidance

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drewbirds

Postby drewbirds » Jan 07, 2019, 4:26 pm

Hey guys!

Not too many posts here - full time lurker.
First just want to say thank you for the wealth of knowledge this site has gave me, what a great hobby, Im hooked.

My general question. Just got a new profitec pro 500 PID (pairing it with sette 270).
I do not own a grouphead thermometer.
I let the machine warm up for at least 30 minutes.

My quick question (hopefully quick answer). With a PID setting of 252. Should I be flushing before my first shot? Flushing after my 2nd, 3rd etc? Normally just doing 18g double shots / medium roast. Is there a PID setting that I should be setting this at?

I do not have a grouphead thermometer, so I was curious if there was a general set of steps to follow to get the best possible brew temp from this machine. I feel like my first dozen shots were not terrible, some were probably pulled a little too soon..but that was my excitedness kicking in.

Also, a few times when I pulled, I get a steady stream..but will end up with a few gurgles or thicker portions of the stream.. what causes this?

Sorry if this is really open ended - really just looking for some general timing / flush / pid guide for HX e61 without erics.

Andrew

linuxAndJavaScript

Postby linuxAndJavaScript » Jan 07, 2019, 9:53 pm

I don't own this machine, but from the lurking I have done on here the rule of thumb for the ECM Sync(and guess it would be the same with yours since it is a E61) is on the first shot flush about 2 oz of water to warm it up(even if it's been on a while). After the first shot...if you do successive shots temps will stay consistent until it sits idle for awhile.

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HB
Admin

Postby HB » Jan 07, 2019, 11:04 pm

I suggest reading Ideal brew temperature management by HX espresso machine type, especially this tip:

HB wrote:It's easy to recognize a Dragon because the flush time/sound will be the same every time (e.g., 90 seconds later). The second flush of a Mixer will be much less vigorous and shorter than the first. An Agnostic will be short the first time and zero the second time. The rebound time for Dragons is very short, usually less than 10 seconds. Mixers require more time or the tail end of the temperature profile will plummet; 10 seconds is a typical minimum and 30 seconds is a typical maximum. An Agnostic will typically have a short rebound time similar to a Dragon.

Most E61 espresso machines are Mixers. I haven't reviewed one in awhile -- ECM Technika IV Profi Review was in late 2013! Since I wrote the comment about the recovery time, manufacturers have re-tuned them to rebound much more slowly, which makes them more "walk up and go" friendly with a short flush to fill your demitasse then pull, but they need more like 90 seconds between shots.
Dan Kehn

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Radio.YYZ

Postby Radio.YYZ » Jan 07, 2019, 11:19 pm

drewbirds wrote:Hey guys!

Not too many posts here - full time lurker.
First just want to say thank you for the wealth of knowledge this site has gave me, what a great hobby, Im hooked.

My general question. Just got a new profitec pro 500 PID (pairing it with sette 270).
I do not own a grouphead thermometer.
I let the machine warm up for at least 30 minutes.

My quick question (hopefully quick answer). With a PID setting of 252. Should I be flushing before my first shot? Flushing after my 2nd, 3rd etc? Normally just doing 18g double shots / medium roast. Is there a PID setting that I should be setting this at?

I do not have a grouphead thermometer, so I was curious if there was a general set of steps to follow to get the best possible brew temp from this machine. I feel like my first dozen shots were not terrible, some were probably pulled a little too soon..but that was my excitedness kicking in.

Also, a few times when I pulled, I get a steady stream..but will end up with a few gurgles or thicker portions of the stream.. what causes this?

Sorry if this is really open ended - really just looking for some general timing / flush / pid guide for HX e61 without erics.

Andrew


Few PID people should chime in but i have a non pid with a similar restrictor setup.

I warm up for 60mins, 4-5 second flush for the first shot, 5 min wait for the second shot and i flush for 1-2 second max (usually just a quick switch on switch off flush) and same for 3rd, 4th shot...

Go by flavour and see what you get, with flushing you are reducing the hump peak temp and at the same time reducing the overall intra temp by a tiny bit. By 2nd, 3rd... etc shot you don't need to flush as much but the first shot its crucial to flush as the group has to be fully heated and the water is over heated.

Experiment with flush time for the first shot, start with 5sec then 4 sec etc to see how your flavour changes.
Good Coffee: Technique/Knowledge > Grinder > Beans > Water > Machine

drewbirds

Postby drewbirds » Jan 12, 2019, 10:35 am

here is where I currently stand ..

PID @ 253

hour warm up.
quick 1 sec flush
wipe basket. grind. distribute. tamp.
3 -5 second flush for bubbles / flash steam
load and pull

18g in about 27 seconds.

hows it look? i have been tending to get some darker sediment ..a ring..around the top of my cup by the time im done. does this mean possibly too fine of grind?

taste is balanced.

drewbirds

Postby drewbirds » Jan 12, 2019, 10:36 am

Image

Bluenoser

Postby Bluenoser » Jan 12, 2019, 2:07 pm

Here is my 7 month experience with my Pro500 PID and my opinion.

I tried and tried to resist the group-head thermometer.. Save yourself a bunch of guessing and headache. Order Eric's thermometer. My opinion is that no HX manufacturer today should sell this design without giving the user some full time monitoring of, at least, the water temp leaving the screen. I even wrote to Profitec in Germany about this issue.

My machine seems to operate different than the one tested by WholeLLove. In theirs, they set their PID to 252 and could pull 5 back-to-back shots, 2 minutes apart and temp was within 1 deg of 200. I don't get that. And I think it shows the difficulty in designing a thermosyphon system with a small hole and expect all machine tolerances from unit to unit to be exact enough to get identical performance. I wonder if unit variances might be significant.

In my machine I set the PID to 256. The group idles at about 200F after about 45 minutes. With no flush, the first pull is a little hot and rises to about 205 and settles down to 200. But the actual brew water will be different because of the smoothing effect of the thermal mass of the E61. Only a SCACE could tell what that brew water temp is. What I find is that after each pull, my next idle temp is down 4-5 degrees. So after the first shot, it is idling at about 196. I pull second shot and it goes up to about 202, ends about 199. Likely perfect. But now idle is down to about 191.. I need to wait about 5-8 minutes to get idle back to 195 or the next pull with be sour. Without the thermometer there is absolutely nooooooo way you can tell this. I had 5 guys over for espresso and the #4 and #5 shots were much worse than #1, #2 and #3.. At that point I had to do about a 15 minute wait as my idle temp was below 190.

I also found in part of my workflow was causing an issue. I was removing the portafilter after each shot and cleaning and leaving out until next shot.. This added to the cooling effect. If I leave it in until I am ready to load/pull, I think the group stays hotter. I was almost to the point of sending my machine back because I could not get consistent shots. But the thermometer saved the machine.

I don't find flushes are necessary. If I am only doing one shot and then shutting down, and since my first shot can run a bit hot, I might do a 4 second flush and then wait for the idle temp to drop a bit and then pull the shot. Again.. how on earth could you tell without knowing where the idle temp is. If my first shot is a milk drink, I leave it hot as bitter is better with milk. :) When I contacted my sales guy, he said it is not unusual in HX machines for the brew water to vary over 10F degrees!.. Well.. I don't think that can be true.. but it shows that there is not exact knowledge of the characteristics of these HX designs. I still love my machine and it is fine for my learning journey for quite a while.. but identifying where the brew water temp is impossible without some type of measurement device. I tried all the foam cup and thermocouple devices and they were fine, but tend to only allow a single point measurement; and aren't suited for easily determining what state the thermosyphon water is at.

Be careful of very short flushes that you may use to clean the screen. I've heard that a 1 second or shorter flush could introduce air into the thermosyphon loop and then you'll have issues with brew water temp as well. (a long flush tends to get rid of air). All part of learning about the HX design.

Bluenoser

Postby Bluenoser » Jan 12, 2019, 2:11 pm

drewbirds wrote:here is where I currently stand ..

PID @ 253

hour warm up.
quick 1 sec flush
wipe basket. grind. distribute. tamp.
3 -5 second flush for bubbles / flash steam


On my Pro500PID, I don't get any flash steam. Only 40-45 minute warm up is sufficient according to my thermometer (another advantage). Be careful that short flushes don't introduce air into your TS. May be better to skip that step.

shanewiebeftr

Postby shanewiebeftr » Jan 12, 2019, 4:25 pm

Have any of you used those stick on temp strips. You see lots of the lever guys stick them on and they're much easier to hide than a big thermometer sticking out of the group. I'm guessing it would give some indication of brew temp and should be repeatable. I just hate the look of Eric's thermometer sticking out of the group so I'm searching for alternatives.

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Radio.YYZ

Postby Radio.YYZ » replying to shanewiebeftr » Jan 12, 2019, 10:47 pm

I am the only one who notices the thermometer, everyone thinks its part of the machine. Looks pretty decent and blends in nicely.

Bluenoser: So five minutes each shot and 4th and fifth get lower in temp? Maybe try increasing pid temp and will have to do some flushes to get the temp balanced out.

The WLL video was too good to be true i think, especially after finding the restrictor is 2.25mm which in my experience is too low and requires longer waits between flushes. I ended up with the 2.6mm restrictor and i seem to get good results with it. I have made about 7 drinks at a time with 5 min wait between each and i have had similar temperature peaks and throughout the shot and flavour has been same with all the shots. The only shot that can be a mixed bag is the first one as i have to flush between 3-5seconds based on idle time and temperature.
Good Coffee: Technique/Knowledge > Grinder > Beans > Water > Machine