Radio.YYZ wrote:I don't have values for 1.2 bar, as i am currently running at 1.1bar max. I just made some, and here are the numbers.

After being turned on and no use, grouphead temp:

30 mins: 197F
45 mins: 203F
55 mins: 204F

I did a flush, it peaked to 212 F and i stopped at 211 F so it hits 201 F when lever was down.

You idle at 204F after 55 minutes at 1.1 bar? Dang, I idle higher than that at a lower bar (207.5-208 at 0.9-1.0bar)

Are you saying you flush until 211 on the drop, wait about 18 seconds, and then pull your shot? What temp do you read when you start getting drops out; Is that 201f? Or does your thermometer read 201f when you pull the lever? I've seen some videos where people flush, then stop the lever and the temp immediately will jump down quite a few degrees. My readout never does that.

I am running 0.95 bar now at most, and my thermometer shows 207.5 idle after an hour. When flushing it maxes up to 212 or so. I still have issues getting it right, grinding finer and dosing less helps with this coffee, but really trying to get the sourness out. The overwhelming bite of sourness. Yes, I'm using a bottomless and pulling 1:2 in ~25-30 seconds, fresh coffee, etc etc. Still think my temp is off. I can grind so fine I choke the machine, and taste sourness so I have to down dose. See below for temp fixes that I'm still playing with, but I seem to get way different temp readouts.

I idle at 207.5, flush until I get back to 205 or so, pull a shot within 10 seconds (its still about 205 when I pull up), and get 202-201 or so when drops come out and it goes down to 194 or so by shot end. These always taste sour. If I flush and stop flushing at about 209, pull a shot within 10 seconds (still at 209ish when I pull), I get a 205 reading with drops coming out dropping in temp until about 198 by end. This helps a bunch with sourness and I've had a few shots with almost good balance.

If I do I rebound shots (while temp is rebounding aka Flush n Wait style), and start a pull at 194-195, i get 202 when drops coming out, these shots are usually sour. Haven't tested rebound shots where I pull way above that to really comment, but I suspect to get sourness out by pulling higher.

Does anyone else experience this or does this type of temp logic make sense? Do you get the same type of readouts as me? Eric, do those temp readouts make sense to you if you are around? Have I just lost my marbles?

after reading thru this thread I'm reminded of why I want a double boiler when I upgrade...

zanna5910 wrote:You idle at 204F after 55 minutes at 1.1 bar? Dang, I idle higher than that at a lower bar (207.5-208 at 0.9-1.0bar)

Are you saying you flush until 211 on the drop, wait about 18 seconds, and then pull your shot? What temp do you read when you start getting drops out; Is that 201f? Or does your thermometer read 201f when you pull the lever? I've seen some videos where people flush, then stop the lever and the temp immediately will jump down quite a few degrees. My readout never does that.

I am running 0.95 bar now at most, and my thermometer shows 207.5 idle after an hour. When flushing it maxes up to 212 or so. I still have issues getting it right, grinding finer and dosing less helps with this coffee, but really trying to get the sourness out. The overwhelming bite of sourness. Yes, I'm using a bottomless and pulling 1:2 in ~25-30 seconds, fresh coffee, etc etc. Still think my temp is off. I can grind so fine I choke the machine, and taste sourness so I have to down dose. See below for temp fixes that I'm still playing with, but I seem to get way different temp readouts.

I idle at 207.5, flush until I get back to 205 or so, pull a shot within 10 seconds (its still about 205 when I pull up), and get 202-201 or so when drops come out and it goes down to 194 or so by shot end. These always taste sour. If I flush and stop flushing at about 209, pull a shot within 10 seconds (still at 209ish when I pull), I get a 205 reading with drops coming out dropping in temp until about 198 by end. This helps a bunch with sourness and I've had a few shots with almost good balance.

If I do I rebound shots (while temp is rebounding aka Flush n Wait style), and start a pull at 194-195, i get 202 when drops coming out, these shots are usually sour. Haven't tested rebound shots where I pull way above that to really comment, but I suspect to get sourness out by pulling higher.

Does anyone else experience this or does this type of temp logic make sense? Do you get the same type of readouts as me? Eric, do those temp readouts make sense to you if you are around? Have I just lost my marbles?

Is yours with your porta installed or without? Mine was with porta installed. Also depends on your ambient temperature, where my machine is it is about 20C/68F.

If you are trying to get rid of sourness then there are a few things to consider, coffee beans, type of roast, temperature.

From what i have gathered is that 94C / 201.2F is the temp where least amount of acid is pulled from the coffee.

My goal to get a 201.2F coffee (which i gather the thermometer should read ~ 195F), to achieve this I flush to about 202F and while pulling the shot the temp would range from 197-193. I can achieve this by having pstat set max to 1.0bar.

When i run 1.1bar max it is hard to get the same temp as the machine's thermal mass makes it difficult to maintain that sort of temperature without flushing a large amount of water.

I do run 1.1bar max when i want my coffee to taste "bright" and i want more acid in the cup (if the beans were roasted very close to the 2nd crack).

If the coffee was not roasted very very close or even above the 2nd crack and the beans were just above the first crack, then the beans will have more natural acidity in them and i want to extract least amount of acid from the coffee.

Having said that i think your problem maybe coffee beans itself. This machine is very predictable and stable thermally so changing the pstat changes the thermal properties of the whole machine, flushing times, coffee in the cup, and rebound time.

Before i had the thermometer my taste told me that 1bar max was where my sweet spot was for coffee and i have proven that to myself with the numbers given and the science behind the extraction.

I suggest you get very very very dark roast coffee (very close to the 2nd crack) and from there wander to roasts that are not so close to the 2nd crack and adjust temperatures accordingly. I wouldn't get hung up on temps too much but use the taste as primary and use the temperature to confirm your taste for consistent shot pulls.

goalerjones wrote:after reading thru this thread I'm reminded of why I want a double boiler when I upgrade...

It's True, when I bought that machine I didn't know that concept.

If I could go back, I would buy a double boiler machine as a QM67.

It's only a few hundred dollars more, but if you calculate the time that you lost to figure out how the HX react to get the sweet spot, it's a better deal to spend more money to get a double boiler machine.

Radio.YYZ wrote:Is yours with your porta installed or without? Mine was with porta installed. Also depends on your ambient temperature, where my machine is it is about 20C/68F.

With it in, around 74 ambient.

And yes, I have been trying different coffees and whatnot, still experimenting and have been getting some good results here and there, just trying to repeat it. More commonly finer grind with lesser dose seems to help the most. I wish I had a week to just play with it and make lots of coffee all day to experiment! Its hard to test properly when you can only make a shot or two per morning. So many variables happening...

I make 1-2 drinks max a day as well, but i log everything so i don't forget variables.

You have to master dosing, grind and timing first and then go to temperature.

Now my coffee has gotten older than it should be so i am brewing it at a lower temperature to get it to the taste i like!

If you were in canada then i would recommend a coffee that is very low on acid - then again brew it at a lower temperature to reduce the acidity.

I've had my Pro 500 for about a month or less, have erics thermometer installed. Super fun to use, still dialing it in since I only get to make 1 or at most 2 drinks per day and I'm a newbie but happy with it so far. boiler pressure cycles between 1.05 and 1.2 bar

I've noticed that after 60 minutes on (first thing in the morning, I have a timer that turns the machine on about 1 hour before I'm ready to make coffee), the grouphead idles at 208f. After I make my first espresso of the morning, it will remain on without use for another 30 minutes to an hour before I make another espresso, and then it's idling at 211f. Why would this be? An hour should be long enough for the machine to get as hot as it will get, right? I tend to be able to hit the temperature curve I want easier when it is idling at 211f.

my 2nd day of running at 1bar max and taste is very good.

Stats:

1 - Idle Temp when on is: 202F idle about 60mins with porta attached and thermometer just turned on.
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2 - Flush Start - Temp Peaked at 211F and I stopped the lever at 204F and it continues to fall.
3 - 12s - Flush
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4 - 21s - Wait before pulling shot (Shot prep)
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5 - 1.00.6 - 202F Lever Pull
6 - 1.07.5 - Frst Drip
7 - 1.08.7 - 197.5F
8 - 1.09.3 - 196F
9 - 1.10.5 - 195F
10 - 1.12.3 - 194.9F
11 - 1.13.0 - 195F
12 - 1.13.6 - 195.3F
13 - 1.14.3 - 194.5F
14 - 1.23.9 - 194.8F
15 - 1.28.0 - 194.2F
16 - 1.30.6 - 193.6F Lever Close 23 Second Shot