Profitec/ECM Flow Profiling Results

Need help with equipment usage or want to share your latest discovery?
elbertfunkleberg

Postby elbertfunkleberg » Apr 14, 2019, 1:26 am

Now that some of us have either bought a Profitec/ECM machine with flow profiling, or installed the flow profiling kit, it would be very interesting to hear some feedback on the feature. It would also be super interesting to hear any experiences of the Lelit profiling kit installed on a Profitec/ECM machine.

For me I get the best espresso from my Londinium L1 lever machine and my aim is to get results close to that with my Profitec 700. It's early days with the profiling kit so I haven't come to a conclusion yet as to whether it's even possible. The L1 takes a much looser grind than the Profitec because, as I understand, the max brew pressure of the Bosco lever group is about 6 bar. My goal with the P700 is to use the same grind and to try and emulate the extraction on the L1. So far I have determined that with the profiling kit I have to limit the max pressure at the P700 group to 4-5 bar and tail off to zero in order to get a similar extraction.

domi

Postby domi » Apr 14, 2019, 5:14 am

Just curious: I assume you had your Londinium first. If so, what were your reasons for adding the Profitec 700? Was it to address particular shortcomings of the Londinium? Asking since both are considered to be higher-end / expensive machines. Sorry for not answering your actual question, hopefully others will.

elbertfunkleberg

Postby elbertfunkleberg » replying to domi » Apr 14, 2019, 2:08 pm

I had the Profitec first and inherited the Londinium. If they both performed the same I'd rather keep just the Profitec due to limited counter space, but for now the Londinium is making better coffee. I have come to the conclusion that a steady 9 bar extraction isn't a recipe for sweet espresso so I'm hoping the profiling kit can help.

Prairiedawg

Postby Prairiedawg » Apr 15, 2019, 3:50 pm

After having this profiling kit for about a week or so, my concerns have been allayed. The main concern I had was overly cool shots from the increased dwell time in the group. In the Pro 700 the boiler temp is obviously much hotter than the indicated temperature on the pid. thee group is cooler than the indicated pid temp. Once flowing the hot boiler water is tempered by the group and temp is approximately the same as the pid indicates. YMMV.

After installing and testing with a fine wire thermocouple between the shower screen and the puck, I found my actual puck temp was about 5 degrees too low. I adjusted the offset a couple of degrees and I can say that now the actual puck temperatures are MORE stable and accurate than pre flow control. I just tested this again a few minutes ago.

Setpoint 202
Offset 28
Shot time approx 40 sec.
18g in, 37g out

I pulled a lever style shot with a slow ramp up of approx 9 seconds to 8.5 bar. Pulled for approx 10 seconds and gradually back to 1 bar over 20 seconds.

The initial water temp at the puck was 198* for about 2 seconds, quickly up to 203 for a few more seconds and sat at 201* for the balance of the shot. I'm not sure that an E61 could get any more stable. The difference between the 202 setpoint and the 201 shot temp could be rectified by tweaking the offset.

Before my temperature profile was a very shallow "U" curve. Before the water would hit the puck 2-3 degrees above setpoint, drop 2-3 degrees below for most of the duration and then climb back to setpoint or above. This seemed to give an average shot temp close to setpoint but not exactly. I'm guessing most saturated groups aren't doing much better than that.

As far as using preinfusion, I'm still working on that. The Lever style shots pull and excellent Cappuccino. I've stayed away from espresso as I've had a terrible cold for 10 days now and still cannot smell and taste very well. Wife says they're bitter, just adding more complexity.......

elbertfunkleberg

Postby elbertfunkleberg » Apr 15, 2019, 11:46 pm

Prairiedawg wrote:As far as using preinfusion, I'm still working on that. The Lever style shots pull and excellent Cappuccino. I've stayed away from espresso as I've had a terrible cold for 10 days now and still cannot smell and taste very well. Wife says they're bitter, just adding more complexity.......

The proof of the espresso is in the tasting so I'd wait for that before coming to any conclusions.

One of the things I'm coming to realize is that controlling this thing is quite difficult. Once you have head pressure built up in the group behind a tight puck it's not so easy to drop the pressure. When watching the WLL demo I noticed that Todd did not tamp the coffee and subsequently got a bit of a gusher. I thought this was a real rookie mistake but now I'm wondering if it wasn't intentional. If you don't tamp then pressure changes are a lot more responsive, but of course you don't end up with anything drinkable.

For me the the jury is still out on this kit. I have yet to produce anything as good as my lever machine.

Swissbariss

Postby Swissbariss » Apr 16, 2019, 6:15 am

ECM will not respond to any inquries of this feature. I guess they like to think its still a secret even though its all over the internt and WLL confimed it is coming out. :?

JayBeck

Postby JayBeck » Apr 16, 2019, 2:26 pm

elbertfunkleberg wrote:The proof of the espresso is in the tasting so I'd wait for that before coming to any conclusions.

One of the things I'm coming to realize is that controlling this thing is quite difficult. Once you have head pressure built up in the group behind a tight puck it's not so easy to drop the pressure. When watching the WLL demo I noticed that Todd did not tamp the coffee and subsequently got a bit of a gusher. I thought this was a real rookie mistake but now I'm wondering if it wasn't intentional. If you don't tamp then pressure changes are a lot more responsive, but of course you don't end up with anything drinkable.

For me the the jury is still out on this kit. I have yet to produce anything as good as my lever machine.


It seems common based off my experience with other DE1 owners that complete profiling without a deep understanding of how and why can lead to less than desired shots.

A great spring lever style profile is probably my favorite.

Start with the valve all the way open until 3 bar (for light roasts; 1-2 bar for darker) is reached then close the valve and hold pressure at the 1-3 bar range for 6-12 seconds (shorter for darker, longer for lighter). This similated cocking down the lever. If you experience a lot of drops here your grind is too coarse. Ideally you see beading but no drops. Then quickly take pressure to 9 bar for around 8 seconds (i.e. spring releases) to slowly reduce flow (pressure) over 45-60 seconds (linger for lighter). You want your desired yield between 3-4 bar so that's the guide for grind and dose.

This type of shot is always sweet and well balanced. It works perfectly on DE1, seems easy to do on Bianca, and should be easy here.

mathof

Postby mathof » Apr 16, 2019, 3:41 pm

elbertfunkleberg wrote:The L1 takes a much looser grind than the Profitec because, as I understand, the max brew pressure of the Bosco lever group is about 6 bar.


The spring pressure on an L1 varies with the pre-infusion pressure. A plumbed-in version pre-infusing at 3 bar leads to pressure at the catch-point of about 7-and-a-half bar. In the tank version, which I have, boiler pressure pre-infusion leads to a catch-point of around 45°, where the pressure is about 6-and-a-half bar.

You can see the measurements in this video made by Reiss of Londinium:

http://www.vimeo.com/243054314