PRE infusion with the lever of an E61 brew group? - Page 3

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Qrumcof (original poster)
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#21: Post by Qrumcof (original poster) »

JRising wrote:Go ahead and set the flow-control to closed and raise the lever... You'll probably get a drop through the showerfilter every 2 or 3 seconds. Turn the flow control just the slightest more open so that you're gettng 4 or 5 drops per second (or maybe the thinnest trickle that breaks and reforms) and remember that position.
In that position, you won't have to raise and lower the lever, that will be good for your pre-infusion. Put your portafilter in with the prep, and raise the control lever, the trickle will "pre-infuse" your prep for about 8 seconds (if your idea of a thin trickle is the same as mine) and then the group gauge will begin to rise. At that point, open the flow control to let pressure rise to 8.5 (or something) across the puck, when the shot is about 2/3 done, start closing the valve slowly to decrease the pressure drop across the puck (and maybe stop the channeling, then lower the lever to stop the brew.
I tried this, and I didn't see any pressure at the group at all after at least 10s.. Do you shoot to get the trickle such that I will see some pressure within the 8s (then open it up to 8-bars)? I did get a shot that was darker and thicker than my usual shots. The taste was good too..

Pressino
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#22: Post by Pressino »

Re:
shotwell wrote:Disregarding the paraphrasing and misquoting that you refer to as quoting, the whole point of my post was that it is past time to move on from a term that confuses new users. ...

I was not aware that this has been called preinfusion for 50 years, but I'm not about to go dig for the original e61 patent or learn enough Italian to properly translate it and either prove or disprove that. ...

We can agree to disagree, and I'm happy to do that. I'm not at all confused by what 'preinfusion' means as it is used currently, so have no issue with people choosing to keep using the term. I interact with a huge volume of users new to profiling and advanced preinfusion techniques, so I'm a little more sensitive to how people interpret this than you would expect.
1) When I quoted you, I merely copied and pasted, without changes, what you had written. That is quoting, not misquoting.

2) The patent is readily available online and is in English. Valente uses the word "infusion" to describe the early spring controlled preliminary soaking of the puck before the coffee flows out of the portafilter, which has been referred to by others as "pre-infusion" ever since.

3) Of course it's fine to disagree. I was simply responding to your statement that the term "pre-infusion" is a misnomer with what I took as your implication that those of us who use the term are somehow ignoramuses...Sorry if my response may have come across as an over reaction. :(

PIXIllate
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#23: Post by PIXIllate »

Qrumcof wrote:I intend to try it, but I need to wrap my head around flow rate, versus bars pressure at the group. In the past Ive always monitored the pressure at the group when trying to use flow control.. But found it nearly impossible to get the bars where I want them while the shot is pulling (because it happens too fast).

I'm hoping "mapping" grams/sec will give me a way to use flow control and have consistency..

Also, my flow knob turns 2 1/4 turns (damn).. Wondering if that's normal..
I understand. It took me a long time to really understand how flow can create pressure and how pressure is affected by flow. Please see posts #2 and 3 from Dick and Jeff in this thread. This is about as good an explanation as you're going to get.

How much does flow rate matter, if brew pressure is same?

I hate shooting videos but I'll eventually get around to making one showing the way I use the e61 flow control to produce the profile I describe.

Good luck.

Qrumcof (original poster)
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#24: Post by Qrumcof (original poster) »

How do I measure SHOT time when doing profiling or PI?
I use the lunar scale..
Should I reset (start timer) when I engage the pump?
or start from first drip?

PIXIllate
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#25: Post by PIXIllate replying to Qrumcof »

I'd be less concerned about timing the shot than watching for fill time and how it flowing. 35 seconds is probably in the ballpark but it varies with ratio and coffee.

Qrumcof (original poster)
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#26: Post by Qrumcof (original poster) replying to PIXIllate »

LOL, then how would I dial-in? The only way I know is by using time and grams (out) to set my grind.

I'm going to try to map my flow today..

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Jeff
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#27: Post by Jeff »

I'd start with Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste

"36 g in 25 seconds" or whatever is just a benchmark*. That, or one that is appropriate for your gear and coffees, will get you close. Past that, you need to go by taste. I take notes on what my inputs are (coffee, grind, dose, profile) and what the outputs are (mass, measure of time/flow) and what the shot tastes like (even "Ugh, really sour" is a great start). When I note what I change for the next shots, it helps me to get a feel for how adjustments impact flavor.

* It is arguably a poor benchmark for anything other than a classic, 9-bar, flat machine. Levers and extraction profiling need their own benchmarks.

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JB90068
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#28: Post by JB90068 »

Qrumcof wrote:How do I measure SHOT time when doing profiling or PI?
With my Luna, I have it set to start the shot timer at first drip. I PI (which doesn't drip and lasts about 10 seconds for a medium to light beans) and then use the appropriate profile for the roast I happen to be using.
Old baristas never die. They just become over extracted.

PIXIllate
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#29: Post by PIXIllate »

Qrumcof wrote:LOL, then how would I dial-in? The only way I know is by using time and grams (out) to set my grind.

I'm going to try to map my flow today..
Yeah, I hear you. When you start to profile shots the anchor of time kind of goes away and is replaced with landmarks like flow rate in ml/sec and target pressures for different stages. As a basic rule dial in a shot without the profile and then go a bit finer with the grind. How much finer? You'll get the feel for it and it changes with different coffees.

I had the same question when I started. I guess for the profile I've been using that I described I start with 3 seconds at 7.5ml/sec flow and then put the flow control in the position I know corresponds with a 3ml/sec flow and then watch the pressure gauge until it passes 2 bar and then move the flow control to the closed position. This is probably 10-15 seconds after starting the pump. At this point I'm waiting for 1-2g in the cup and the bottom of the basket to wet and drip evenly. At that point I open up the flow to hit peak pressure and then you can just judge the speed of the stream visually.

If it takes a long time to hit 2 bar or for the bottom of the basket to fill in I know I'm grinding too fine. If I'm struggling to keep up with the steps and the peak pressure falls short of my ~8bar target I may be too coarse.

I know this is all a bit hand wavey but there is an art and feel to pulling great shots. The good news is with a setup like yours even the practice will probably taste okay. Or even great. Sometimes shots will surprise you.

shotwell
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#30: Post by shotwell »

It's
Pressino wrote:Re:



1) When I quoted you, I merely copied and pasted, without changes, what you had written. That is quoting, not misquoting.

2) The patent is readily available online and is in English. Valente uses the word "infusion" to describe the early spring controlled preliminary soaking of the puck before the coffee flows out of the portafilter, which has been referred to by others as "pre-infusion" ever since.
1) My bad, I was referring to your original reply where you took my point about infusion and just called it preinfusion. I could have been more clear, and kind!
2) Sounds good. I think calling the phase infusion is more intuitive than preinfusion for people that aren't already initiated, whether it is then broken into constituent parts of filling and soaking or not.

Regardless, sorry for taking you too personally.