Plumbing in from scratch

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shadyatbest

#1: Post by shadyatbest »

Hello all. I've read countless amazing recommendations from this group, so I'm hoping to tap into the collective brain trust for my next project.

I'm in the process of redoing the kitchen and about a month out from demo. Part of the project includes a slight redesign that will move the espresso machine to a new location. I'll have an opportunity to make my plumbed in system exactly how I want it. The machine is a Quick Mill Vetrano 2B evo. It will be located right next to the sink so water access will be easy. So here are the questions.

1. How would you run the water into the machine? My wife absolutely will not let me run a line through the new counters, so that leaves the wall. Should I remove some of the backsplash and put a plastic cover that allows the piping to run through to the back of the machine? Then if things changed in the future or I sold the house, I could simply replace the plastic with the correct size piece of tile to complete the backsplash? Or would you'd do a more permanent plumbing connection out of the wall that I could screw into?

2. What would be the ideal filtration for it that I can fit under the sink? We have hard water and currently treat it with a whole house salt based softening system. My current setup involves then running the water through carbon filters before going to my machine. I can do better than that. Should I add a reverse osmosis system with re-mineralization? I see some systems on Amazon that are somewhat reasonable. I know, I know, it depends and it's better asked in the water section...but just give me your gut answer.

Thanks!

shadyatbest

#2: Post by shadyatbest »


ira
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#3: Post by ira »

My first thought was run it all through the side of the cabinet to the right if you can put up with that. Means the holes are essentially invisible. I'd make sure you can also run a drain line even if you don't do it now, it's almost even better than no tank. If you have somewhere outside the kitchen where you can hide the RO system I'd make sure you run a line or lines to there. It's a lot easier to change filters and repair problems when you don't have to crawl through a small door to get to it. Other than that, a short run of 1 1/2" or 2" pvc with 45 degree ends between the back splash and under the sink should be enough for 2 hoses, though if you make it big enough for the power cords and put a 20amp dedicated line, another line for the grinder and maybe a 220V 20amp line for the future, you can hide the cords and be set for anything you decide to do in the future.

Ira

Don Task

#4: Post by Don Task »

shadyatbest wrote: I'm in the process of redoing the kitchen and about a month out from demo. Part of the project includes a slight redesign that will move the espresso machine to a new location. I'll have an opportunity to make my plumbed in system exactly how I want it. The machine is a Quick Mill Vetrano 2B evo. It will be located right next to the sink so water access will be easy. So here are the questions.

1. How would you run the water into the machine? My wife absolutely will not let me run a line through the new counters, so that leaves the wall. Should I remove some of the backsplash and put a plastic cover that allows the piping to run through to the back of the machine? Then if things changed in the future or I sold the house, I could simply replace the plastic with the correct size piece of tile to complete the backsplash? Or would you'd do a more permanent plumbing connection out of the wall that I could screw into?

2. What would be the ideal filtration for it that I can fit under the sink? We have hard water and currently treat it with a whole house salt based softening system. My current setup involves then running the water through carbon filters before going to my machine. I can do better than that. Should I add a reverse osmosis system with re-mineralization? I see some systems on Amazon that are somewhat reasonable. I know, I know, it depends and it's better asked in the water section...but just give me your gut answer.
When you say "through the new counters" I'm assuming you mean she won't let you cut holes in the new countertops. I had the same problem. The new countertops were to expensive to drill holes for water and drain lines. My backsplash is made up of small glass tiles. I simply removed one of them and ran the water and drain lines through the hole and down into the space / cavity withing the wall where I completed my plumbing.
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However, rather than using the interior wall cavity you could also fish the lines through the hole in the backsplash and then curve them so they loop back around and through a hole you've cut in the back of a cabinet just below the coffee bar where you could easily install your water filter system and assorted connections.

As you know, there are already tons of discussion on water, in this forum so I won't get into that. That said, you're on the right track considering reverse osmosis systems for removal of the salt and other contaminants introduced by your softener. If you're on a well then carbon filters are great for removing certain issues and are very effective at removing substances that give tap water a bad taste and smell and disinfectants like chlorine but they provide little benefit when it comes to removing salt. If it were me, and "if" your water is great other than being hard, I'd tap into the water supply "before" the water softener and run a line to the coffee bar, then install a softener in the cabinet under the machine... something like the Bestmax S or a OmniOure QWS. It would be a less expensive alternative to a Reverse Osmosis System.

Question... whats on the other side of the wall (the wall the refrigerator is against?) Is it an interior wall?
Krups, then Silvia, then Livia 90, then a Techno! Does it ever end? [sigh]

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Randy G.

#5: Post by Randy G. »

A good contractor can put hols through granite, etc., and then make a matching plug if it need to be concealed later. If no, then through the wall would work. There are valved, inset systems for washing machines and I think something like that can be adapted for your use.
On my website, refer to Plumbing in an Espresso Machine - Part 1 and Plumbing in an Espresso Machine - Part 2 to see how I did my last system. I have hard, private well water but no whole-house softener as the water tastes good but scales. The new system will probably be a Bestmax unit. I have not investigated, but may install it after the same double filter as in the links above to extend the life of the Bestmax filters since they are expensive, but that is just thinking out loud at the moment.

In terms of reverse Osmosis, they waste a lot of water. If you can recover that water for a garden or similar use then that might change things in that regard.
Espresso! My Espresso! - http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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CarefreeBuzzBuzz
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#6: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

On the granite the shop selling it to you will be able to drill it and provide a plug. If still a no, then I would install some sort of pass through in the backsplash so that it looks top notch.

On the water, If you RO and remineralize, just know that the results will vary based on age of filter and contact time with water. Oh an newer systems with permeate pumps use much less water. The alternative is a tank with pump. That's what I use. With the right set up you would only have to fill it about 4 times a year (likely 16-20 gallon tank). You could fill it from RO with no remineralization and then add your stock for alkalinity and hardness. This gives you repeatable results. If you are interested in this happy to chat more. Michael
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CarefreeBuzzBuzz
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#7: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

Also forgot, if you do the RO then you will always wonder if it's right especially if you are remineralizing. If you make water you won't wonder. Its very easy to do. I opted for the making water so I am not second guessing how the water is. I bought a 6 gal tank so I make water every three weeks or so. I may upgrade to a larger tank soon.
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Randy G.

#8: Post by Randy G. »

CarefreeBuzzBuzz wrote:Also forgot, if you do the RO then you will always wonder if it's right especially if you are remineralizing..
One way around that would be to use an inline TDS meter that can be used to monitor the RO's water.

But I would advise having the water tested for actual content first. If you have a crawl space you could bypass the softener system and install a treatment solution just for coffee. It would seem overkill to soften the water, then remove the minerals from the softened water with RO, then re-mineralize the water if all that is not necessary. But having an under-sink reservoir and a flo-jet pump to supply the machine, and using the RO water with your own re-mineralization formula may be a good way to go. Maybe. Maybe not.
Espresso! My Espresso! - http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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CarefreeBuzzBuzz
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#9: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

Randy G. wrote:...... But having an under-sink reservoir and a flo-jet pump to supply the machine, and using the RO water with your own re-mineralization formula may be a good way to go.
Randy fyi, the 4-5 of us I know using these have not used flo-jets. We used Aquatecs. They have built in JG 3/8 fittings are seem to work great.
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Cerberus

#10: Post by Cerberus »

I just did this in April.. here's how I did mine:
  • Drilled two holes into a single tile (water + drain)
  • Added a filter in the bottom corner cabinet
  • Ran both lines through two cabinets and into the sink cabinet
  • Added a one-way to water line
  • Reconfigured the trap and added a T to the drain
TIP:
You will most definitely need a diamond hole saw! You can get a cheap kit from Amazon (<$13) that will work fine; however, if you're planning to keep the saws and use them continuously, then buy proper saws (these are good for a couple of cuts). Also, make sure to practice on an tile b/c they will slip if you're not careful (you'll need to star at an angle and then gradually level the drill into a straight line).

My goal was to add a rubber grommet, but I am unable to find one anywhere... except custom made or buying a pack of 1000 - so I gave up on that. Five months later and no issues with either line.

Try your best to drill the hole in a decline so that there's a slope for drain (self-explanatory).

Finally, some pics that might help:





Does not show the drain line, but it's ran the same away (goes along the water line)


This is a lazy-Susan, but no issues with the shelf


Water line and pre p-trap config


Final with p-trap reconfiged