Plumbing in from scratch - Page 2

Need help with equipment usage or want to share your latest discovery?
shadyatbest

#11: Post by shadyatbest »

ira wrote:My first thought was run it all through the side of the cabinet to the right if you can put up with that. Means the holes are essentially invisible. I'd make sure you can also run a drain line even if you don't do it now, it's almost even better than no tank. If you have somewhere outside the kitchen where you can hide the RO system I'd make sure you run a line or lines to there. It's a lot easier to change filters and repair problems when you don't have to crawl through a small door to get to it. Other than that, a short run of 1 1/2" or 2" pvc with 45 degree ends between the back splash and under the sink should be enough for 2 hoses, though if you make it big enough for the power cords and put a 20amp dedicated line, another line for the grinder and maybe a 220V 20amp line for the future, you can hide the cords and be set for anything you decide to do in the future.

Ira
Great suggestions and awesome forward thinking with the electrical connections as well. Right now I have the espresso machine plugged in through a Wemo so I can control it with my phone and Alexa. I'd like to keep that connectivity, so I'll explore some options on doing this with concealed wires! Thanks

shadyatbest

#12: Post by shadyatbest »

Don Task wrote:When you say "through the new counters" I'm assuming you mean she won't let you cut holes in the new countertops. I had the same problem. The new countertops were to expensive to drill holes for water and drain lines. My backsplash is made up of small glass tiles. I simply removed one of them and ran the water and drain lines through the hole and down into the space / cavity withing the wall where I completed my plumbing.
Spoiler: show
image

However, rather than using the interior wall cavity you could also fish the lines through the hole in the backsplash and then curve them so they loop back around and through a hole you've cut in the back of a cabinet just below the coffee bar where you could easily install your water filter system and assorted connections.

As you know, there are already tons of discussion on water, in this forum so I won't get into that. That said, you're on the right track considering reverse osmosis systems for removal of the salt and other contaminants introduced by your softener. If you're on a well then carbon filters are great for removing certain issues and are very effective at removing substances that give tap water a bad taste and smell and disinfectants like chlorine but they provide little benefit when it comes to removing salt. If it were me, and "if" your water is great other than being hard, I'd tap into the water supply "before" the water softener and run a line to the coffee bar, then install a softener in the cabinet under the machine... something like the Bestmax S or a OmniOure QWS. It would be a less expensive alternative to a Reverse Osmosis System.

Question... whats on the other side of the wall (the wall the refrigerator is against?) Is it an interior wall?

Don, Thanks for the suggestions. I was initially thinking doing something exactly like what you are talking about with the backsplash. Then if I held onto an extra tile, I could always plug that hole with the tile later and it would look totally normal. And yes, she won't let me cut through the counter tops, haha. The other side of the wall behind the fridge is a big walk in closet that is accessed from the entry way. That would be a potential spot to store a small water filtration system or reverse osmosis. What else are you thinking with that? Obviously the fridge will have a water line to it, which is water that has bypassed the water softener. So essentially I would have a blank canvas to do something with that water.

shadyatbest

#13: Post by shadyatbest »

Randy G. wrote:A good contractor can put hols through granite, etc., and then make a matching plug if it need to be concealed later. If no, then through the wall would work. There are valved, inset systems for washing machines and I think something like that can be adapted for your use.
On my website, refer to Plumbing in an Espresso Machine - Part 1 and Plumbing in an Espresso Machine - Part 2 to see how I did my last system. I have hard, private well water but no whole-house softener as the water tastes good but scales. The new system will probably be a Bestmax unit. I have not investigated, but may install it after the same double filter as in the links above to extend the life of the Bestmax filters since they are expensive, but that is just thinking out loud at the moment.

In terms of reverse Osmosis, they waste a lot of water. If you can recover that water for a garden or similar use then that might change things in that regard.
Randy, thanks for the reply. I'm about to load up your links right now so I can see what you did. I have cut holes in granite in a previous house and we eventually plugged it with some sort of plastic thing, but that isn't an option for this house. I think it will have to be through the back wall or backsplash. Let me take a look at what you did. Thanks for the reply!

shadyatbest

#14: Post by shadyatbest »

CarefreeBuzzBuzz wrote:Also forgot, if you do the RO then you will always wonder if it's right especially if you are remineralizing. If you make water you won't wonder. Its very easy to do. I opted for the making water so I am not second guessing how the water is. I bought a 6 gal tank so I make water every three weeks or so. I may upgrade to a larger tank soon.
Michael, copy all on the RO system. I've always wondered if that was really the best way. Let me take a look at the alternate way you are suggesting. If I spend that kind of money on an RO system, you are right, I will always be second guessing if it's providing the best water.

shadyatbest

#15: Post by shadyatbest »

Cerberus wrote:I just did this in April.. here's how I did mine:
  • Drilled two holes into a single tile (water + drain)
  • Added a filter in the bottom corner cabinet
  • Ran both lines through two cabinets and into the sink cabinet
  • Added a one-way to water line
  • Reconfigured the trap and added a T to the drain
TIP:
You will most definitely need a diamond hole saw! You can get a cheap kit from Amazon (<$13) that will work fine; however, if you're planning to keep the saws and use them continuously, then buy proper saws (these are good for a couple of cuts). Also, make sure to practice on an tile b/c they will slip if you're not careful (you'll need to star at an angle and then gradually level the drill into a straight line).

My goal was to add a rubber grommet, but I am unable to find one anywhere... except custom made or buying a pack of 1000 - so I gave up on that. Five months later and no issues with either line.

Try your best to drill the hole in a decline so that there's a slope for drain (self-explanatory).

Finally, some pics that might help:

image

image

Does not show the drain line, but it's ran the same away (goes along the water line)
image

This is a lazy-Susan, but no issues with the shelf
image

Water line and pre p-trap config
image

Final with p-trap reconfiged
image
Thank you for the pics. Worth a thousand words! It looks like you ran the lines through a lazy Susan cabinet, which is exactly what I will have. On the output from the water filter, you have a T connection. Where does the line off the bottom of the T go? It looks like it kind of wraps around behind it but I can't tell where it's going. Also, the second hole is for the drain, but I'm not seeing the drain tube? Or am I missing it? My tile guy owes me some work for a trade I did, so I'll leverage that and have him cut the holes. That will save me a little bit of stress! Thanks for the reply...this might end up being close to what I do, as it's so similar.

Don Task

#16: Post by Don Task »

shadyatbest wrote: Don, Thanks for the suggestions. I was initially thinking doing something exactly like what you are talking about with the backsplash. Then if I held onto an extra tile, I could always plug that hole with the tile later and it would look totally normal. And yes, she won't let me cut through the counter tops, haha. The other side of the wall behind the fridge is a big walk in closet that is accessed from the entry way. That would be a potential spot to store a small water filtration system or reverse osmosis. What else are you thinking with that? Obviously the fridge will have a water line to it, which is water that has bypassed the water softener. So essentially I would have a blank canvas to do something with that water.
Wow...a closet is perfect! I was wondering what was on the other side of your wall and hoping it wasn't a bedroom, living room etc. On the other side of my coffee bar wall was the laundry room. Personally, when making my new coffee bar I didn't want to give up precious storage space in my new cabinets for a filter system or plumbing lines so I purchased a inexpensive circuit breaker box from Home depot and gutted it (much faster than me trying to make something) I installed it in the wall opposite the coffee bar so I had a place to put a water softener filter, drain, water supply inlet etc. Taking down a small section of sheetrock offered a way to easily do the plumbing and drain work as well as hide everything out of sight. The plumbing, drain and electrical lines run thru the hole in my backsplash and into the top of the box.

Since the day I originally installed the "filter cabinet" (many years ago) I've changed out to a new espresso machine three times. Hooking up the new water and drain lines each time and installing new filters has been a whole lot easier than me having to crawl into a tight cabinet space under a counter to do the work. Works perfect, gave up no cabinet space, and makes for easy maintenance.



My last machine install was a Lelit Bianca. Between the installation of the Bianca and my last machine I increased my whole house water pressure to 75psi. It's great for showers, not so much for pre-infusion :shock: ! So for my most recent change out I added a BWT Pressure reducer and a John Guest 3 way valve so I can purge a couple gallons out thru each new filter when replaced rather than running thru the machine. FYI: I can remove and replace the water filter canister thru panel door when opened, no need for me to remove the entire box cover. (Spoiler below shows new filter box interior BWT Reducer / 3 way valve))

Spoiler: show
Krups, then Silvia, then Livia 90, then a Techno! Does it ever end? [sigh]

Cerberus

#17: Post by Cerberus »

shadyatbest wrote:Thank you for the pics. Worth a thousand words! It looks like you ran the lines through a lazy Susan cabinet, which is exactly what I will have. On the output from the water filter, you have a T connection. Where does the line off the bottom of the T go? It looks like it kind of wraps around behind it but I can't tell where it's going. Also, the second hole is for the drain, but I'm not seeing the drain tube? Or am I missing it? My tile guy owes me some work for a trade I did, so I'll leverage that and have him cut the holes. That will save me a little bit of stress! Thanks for the reply...this might end up being close to what I do, as it's so similar.
Here are the pics with the drain





The T from the output is to flush the filter and it just "sits there" tucked in the corner. When changing / installing the filter, you'll need to turn off the "main" line under the sink as well as the valve directly after the output (that's inline going to the machine). You then open the flush valve (you put the "flush drain line" into a bucket), drain out some water and twist-turn the filter to remove. Once you replace the filter, you LEAVE the OUTPUT valve in OFF, turn on the main line and you flush the filter (run about 5 gallons of water). Next, turn off the flush valve and then gently turn on the output valve so pressurize the line to the machine.



I did have a leak when I first installed it, and after inspecting everything I found a small crack in the white nut on the left side (input) of the filter. Once replaced there were no issues, but I did buy a cheapo water sensor alarm that is sitting under the filter (gray box in the bottom left corner).

Don Task

#18: Post by Don Task »

Cerberus wrote:Here are the pics with the drain
The T from the output is to flush the filter and it just "sits there" tucked in the corner. When changing / installing the filter, you'll need to turn off the "main" line under the sink as well as the valve directly after the output (that's inline going to the machine). You then open the flush valve (you put the "flush drain line" into a bucket), drain out some water and twist-turn the filter to remove. Once you replace the filter, you LEAVE the OUTPUT valve in OFF, turn on the main line and you flush the filter (run about 5 gallons of water). Next, turn off the flush valve and then gently turn on the output valve so pressurize the line to the machine.
Hey Cerberus... just and idea / something to think about. I also installed a valve so I could flush new filters when replaced. After doing it "once" (filling buckets / pans, splashing water, lugging them out to empty them etc) ... I made a modification.

First, starting with an empty 5 gallon bucket, I opened the flush valve and timed how long it took fill the bucket. Then... I installed a new piece of tubing that runs from the flush valve to a new T Fitting I installed on the drain line. Now, after changing a filter, I just open the flush valve for the required time to flush 5 gallons - close the valve - and I'm done. No muss no fuss. The only downside is you will potentially offend any of your environmentalist friends because of the anthropocentric, biocentric, and ecocentric reasons associated with wasting water. :oops: (I justified the modification after accepting the amount of water wasted was far less than the amount flushed/wasted by RO systems in continuous use.)

NOTE: You may already have a "valved" filter head assembly... but while re-plumbing for my last machine I swapped my old the filter head assembly for one with a "valved head". My original filter head was not valved so I always had to place a rag under the filter because whenever the filter was unscrewed for removal, any water trapped in the line one either side of the filter head, would drain and drip from the filter head. Ugh! With the "valved head" all water that normally flows in or out of the filter is shut off automatically within the head assembly as soon as I unscrew the filter. No more having to catch all errant water that flows from the valve head when swapping filters.



If interested... Water softening filter jargon follows in Spoiler below:

Spoiler: show
I noticed it looks like you are using a Homeland H5KP3 filter for water softening. I recently switched from the Brita Aquaquell BC6 (used the last cartridges in my inventory) Now trying Omnipure QWS. I looked into thee BWT Bestmax line for softening but Yikes... their replacement cartridges are expensive!!! :shock: When changing filters I log the install date and estimate liters used to calculate when the filter is approaching end of life. I currently use a Hach 5B Hardness Test Kit to stay on top of it. According the Specialty Coffee Association (SCA) an acceptable range is 1-5 grains per gallon of calcium hardness with water for brewing coffee would ideally be 4 grains per gallon. Obviously, the higher the number (as in 5) the sooner your machine will need descaling. My "non-filtered" well water measures 5 grains per gallon. Although "acceptable" with the QWS I now measure 2 grains (same as I recorded with the Aquaquell BC6. Granted its not the "ideal 4"... but means I still have enough hardness needed for enjoyable espresso... but I'll get longer times between disassembly and descaling. FYI: My last major overhaul (descaling boilers... ugh ) I was able to go 14 year using the Aquaquell.
Krups, then Silvia, then Livia 90, then a Techno! Does it ever end? [sigh]

shadyatbest

#19: Post by shadyatbest »

Don, now you have my wheels spinning. I think I could definitely do something like that in the closet behind. Once I get the existing cabinets out of the house I should be able to figure out the best way to route this. Thanks!

shadyatbest

#20: Post by shadyatbest »

Cerberus wrote:Here are the pics with the drain
image

image


The T from the output is to flush the filter and it just "sits there" tucked in the corner. When changing / installing the filter, you'll need to turn off the "main" line under the sink as well as the valve directly after the output (that's inline going to the machine). You then open the flush valve (you put the "flush drain line" into a bucket), drain out some water and twist-turn the filter to remove. Once you replace the filter, you LEAVE the OUTPUT valve in OFF, turn on the main line and you flush the filter (run about 5 gallons of water). Next, turn off the flush valve and then gently turn on the output valve so pressurize the line to the machine.

image

I did have a leak when I first installed it, and after inspecting everything I found a small crack in the white nut on the left side (input) of the filter. Once replaced there were no issues, but I did buy a cheapo water sensor alarm that is sitting under the filter (gray box in the bottom left corner).
Gotcha, that makes perfect sense now. Do you mind telling me what kind of filter that is? That system looks like I could incorporate that pretty easily into either the cabinet space or some sort of electrical storage box in the closet behind.