Hey y'all,

I'm new here, so please be gentle. Feel free to point me at threads or documents that I've missed.

I have a 2004-ish vintage ECM Giotto bought in Montreal, Canada (in case that makes any difference). The last few years I've been doing my own maintenance as it's become such a hassle to get the machine out to Faema, which then would sit on it for weeks - during which no coffee for me.

Lately the brew lever has started to creep up to the mid position after brewing, so I ordered an E61 maintenance kit. When the kit arrived, I cracked the group head open, and it wasn't hard to see what the problem was; the stem on the pre-infusion valve is quite badly worn. I haven't been lubricating the cam, so that's on me, I think. I didn't know better, but thanks to the InterWebs and this forum in particular, now I do, so I've ordered some Molykote 111. A little bit will last me a lifetime .

Unfortunately the replacement parts don't really fit.
The new stems and valves have M3 threads, whereas the older hardware has something else, presumably imperial - maybe 6-32.
I got new valves, seals and stems, so I can replace this whole cloth, except the combined lengths of the new lower stem on the pre-infusion valve and the stem on the drain valve aren't right. It looks like the valve-to-valve distance with the old pair of stems I had is 2.15", but the new pair yields 53mm. This leaves me about 0.063" or 1.6mm short.

The o-ring for the mushroom I got in the kit was also VERY wrong. I think it might have been 20mm ID X 4mm W, but he bottom of the mushroom is 1" on the dot. So what seems to actually fit is 5/8"ID X 3/32"W, or perhaps 13/16"ID X 3/32"W.
The lengths of the stems on the brew valve and the upper stem on the pre-infusion valves also look suspicious. It looks like the old stems I had were both originally 0.5" (it's hard to tell, as the pre-infusion valve in particular is quite worn), but the new ones are 12mm and 11.2mm respectively. This results in low travel on the pre-infusion valve, and so the valve-to-valve distance becomes even more critical.

Anyways, long story short is that

• if I fit the new valves and stems I got with the kit, the drain valve never opens.
• if I use the old stem on the drain valve, then it rests against the pre-infusion valve stem. The drain valve then stays open and/or jams the cam.
• I can't mix and match, as the valves and stems have incompatible threads.

Now, I have a little basement machine shop, so I think I'll just get some brass and make some new stems. My question, however, is whether any of this makes any sense.
Are there really metric and imperial versions of the E61 head?
Do any dimensioned drawings exist for me to work from?

Also, I've just learned the purpose of the pre-infusion valve. Since it's fundamentally for pressure relief, it's presumably important to fit the right spring there. I don't know that the springs that came out of the group head were right to begin with, as the hardware seemed to be a bit of a mish mash.
The kit came with two springs of approximately equal length, but of different stiffness. They only seem to fit the brew valve and the pre-infusion valve, but the question is which valve should have the stiffer spring. I fit the stiffer spring to the pre-infusion valve, on the theory that the brew valve is pressurized when closed. Is this correct?

Thanks,
Siggi

As far as I know, E61 is an E61 (which is why it's so easy to get parts for them), although, there are some differences between brands. In terms of parts and rebuilding the E61, the person you want to talk to is Stefano at Stefano's Espressocare (https://www.espressocare.com/). I have an older (MY 2000) ECM, and I've gotten all my parts through him. If I didn't know what to get, I have emailed him and he has always steered me in the right direction.

I don't know if this helps more than last night, but now it's Monday, I'm at work and can measure valves.

These valves are ECM Germany's and as far as I know, they use the same part numbers as Rocket who used ECM Italy's part numbers, They should be exactly like yours.



Preinfusion = 13.36mm Cam-side stem, 52.79 overall...
Drain = 14.01 stem, 27.4 overall.

JRising wrote:I don't know if this helps more than last night, but now it's Monday, I'm at work and can measure valves.

These valves are ECM Germany's and as far as I know, they use the same part numbers as Rocket who used ECM Italy's part numbers, They should be exactly like yours.

Preinfusion = 13.36mm Cam-side stem, 52.79 overall...
Drain = 14.01 stem, 27.4 overall.

Thanks so much, this is awesome!
I'll pull mine apart this afternoon (after I've had my lunchtime latte ) and compare measurements. Could I ask you to also measure the length of the brew valve cam-side stem?
I'm pretty sure the brew and pre-infusion valve stems were originally the same length on my machine, though it's impossible to be sure because of the wear.

11.95 mm 11.96 if I push into the rubber a bit.

Thanks! That matches the stem I got with the new brew valve. Curiouser and curiouser. I guess all I'd need to make is a new cam-side stem for the original preinfusion valve, or I could simply buy a new preinfusion valve.

JRising wrote:I don't know if this helps more than last night, but now it's Monday, I'm at work and can measure valves.

These valves are ECM Germany's and as far as I know, they use the same part numbers as Rocket who used ECM Italy's part numbers, They should be exactly like yours.

Preinfusion = 13.36mm Cam-side stem, 52.79 overall...
Drain = 14.01 stem, 27.4 overall.

These dimensions match my old hardware exactly. Looks like I need Rocket/ECM parts. Thanks again!

This is the kit I ordered https://coffeesection.com/products/faem ... 61b5&_ss=r. It has this warning "Please note that this will not fit all E61 group head, some parts may vary." - well no s**t Sherlock .

Still, there's been a bit of learnin', so not much waste at all.

Just to close out this thread. John was able to help me buy the right drain valve. After installing the part and greasing everything gently, my old ECM Giotto works better than it has in years, and the brew level operates smooth as butter.