annp wrote:I assume the Scace device is more accurate than Eric's device with a high quality meter simply because it is the same place relative to where the puck would be, and I could check temp in all my operating conditions and go from there.

erics wrote:But the idea behind measuring temperature is really just to correlate with your tastes for a particular coffee.

Eric's right, the name of the game is correlating taste and temperature, which assumes you can reproduce a given temperature as desired. To demonstrate this point, I've created a series of videos showing the temperature reported by a thermofilter and the E61 adapter. These videos were made in sequence at different time intervals and none were omitted so you'll see real results and the limitations of the equipment. The target temperature was 201.5F. Most of the time I got it right, but once I was off by as much as 2.2F.

The technique to obtain these results is specific to the espresso machine, boiler setting, and probe placement. The machine was regulated for heavy duty use, so the pressurestat is at the top of the recommended setting. Subsequently the flush amount is slightly more (flush stops when E61 adapter reading passes 204F) and the delay before starting the extraction is short (approximately 10 seconds, also known as "flush and go").

Short idle period (< 3 minutes) after warm up flush (not shown). Result: 202.1F

• «missing video»

Another short idle period. Result: 201.2F

• (This video is a blooper - the phone rang, the Fluke auto-shutoff mid-shot. I was waiting for the local fireman to burst through the door next... )
  «missing video»

Very long idle period (10+ minutes). Result: 199.3F

• I intentionally did not do a "warm up" flush prior to this test and subsequently overshot the flush amount.
  «missing video»

Medium delay (5-7 minutes). Result: 201.3F

• [«missing video»

Medium delay (5-7 minutes). Result: 201.5F

• «missing video»

Long delay (10 minutes). Result: 200.0F

• Long idle periods without a "warm up" flush are easy to overshoot the flush amount.
  «missing video»

Eric and Dan,

That is very helpful information from both of you, thanks for putting the time into your responses.

The information in comparison between both solutions is really helpful.

One thing I know for sure, which was especially emphasized watching in Dan's videos - I suspect I'm not flushing by "feel" long enough.

I'm not 100% decided as to which solution is right for me, but I do need to get some numbers. I'm not getting as consistent results flavorwise as I'd like and it points to temp.

Ann

annp wrote:I suspect I'm not flushing by "feel" long enough.

You're probably a lot closer than you think. The pressurestat of the espresso machine depicted in the videos is cranked up because the last experiment was recovery testing. Your Anita is likely at a more reasonable setting, plus the Quickmills that I've used aren't known for mega-flushes (I would create a video of the Vetrano, which is similar to your Anita, but it shipped out shortly after the review was complete).

Dan -

I was kind of in the middle.

I let Anita run a little longer on the flush this weekend, like 7 ozs instead of 4 (yes, I adjusted the pressure down the first day I had her) - and something is certainly different. I cannot identify it exactly as to what I tasted though, but almost as if there was a metallic taste and it's gone and another more pleasant taste is in the forefront.

I've got a new coffee though and I wish I didn't, because it is presenting all sorts of other hassles.

Still, I need to get some temp info.

Ann

annp wrote:Apparently the wire which would run to a meter of my choice from the thermocouple is fairly thin and fragile, so if I buy a meter that is super flexible and usable for lots of different temp applications, like a Fluke 50, it's going to have to sit on the counter next to my machine. My counter space is small and Anita gets moved around a lot for filling, cleaning and access to other things on the counter.

fwiw, i run 30 or 32 gauge thermocouple wires with plugs connected to a variety of instruments/dataloggers which get moved around a fair amount. as long as there is no strain on the wire and no sharp bends, there doesn't seem to be any problem with wire longevity.


the smaller the thermocouple, the better the response time.


--barry "size does matter"

I kind of share the earlier poster's concerns about the thermocouple and external meter. Would it be possible to use this device to mount a modified digital thermometer a la Dave Stephen's No More Guesswork! Naked Truth of E61 Temperature Revealed?

Cheers,

Andrew

arossphoto wrote:I kind of share the earlier poster's concerns about the thermocouple and external meter.

i really think this is a non-issue provided some basic care in handling is exercised. don't jerk on the wires, don't pinch the wires. it's not that big of a deal.

barry wrote:it's not that big of a deal.

And Dave's thermometer wouldn't be nearly as responsive as the HTTC thermocouples.

barry wrote:i really think this is a non-issue provided some basic care in handling is exercised. don't jerk on the wires, don't pinch the wires. it's not that big of a deal.

I agree that it's not that big of a deal and would certainly be more accurate, but having a small digital display attached directly to the group head would certainly be nicer aesthetically, and would make the kitchen look less like a workshop.

I was just looking at the dimensions of the adapter, and it doesn't look like it would even be possible to mount a thermometer. The hole in the adapter for the thermocouple is 1/16" and the thermometer I have here is 1/8". I imagine this is pretty standard and I doubt it would be possible to find a thermometer with a 1/16" diameter.