RTOBarista wrote:Meiculos is launching tomorrow at 9AM PDT. It will be $1200 is you signed up early with a Dec. 23 Delivery.

Lance Hedrick had a review early today. I have signed up

Where is the review please, Ray?

It's not a review. It's a "first look". Just search for "Hedrick meticulous" on Google.

Thanks for that.

I watched Lance's whole first look. While I've been following this machine since Quan showed it, and reserved, I am torn. I don't know if it would be better to go this route, and use the new nanofoamer, or go ahead and get a bit more traditional machine like the Ascaso Steel Duo PID. I feel the duo has good support, flexibility in shot size and workflow, possibly faster in warm up and multiple shot pulls, and seems to tick all kinds of marks. It doesn't have the programmable flow control this does, though, and it would be an awesome community to be a part of if it takes off, which I imagine it will. Though the Meticulous is unique and has a wow factor, would hardly need maintenance as it's dead simple, takes up a little less space, and whisper quiet.

rtravisboyd wrote:or go ahead and get a bit more traditional machine like the Ascaso Steel Duo PID. I feel the duo has good support, flexibility in shot size and workflow, possibly faster in warm up and multiple shot pulls

If you're thinking about a machine like that, I don't think the Meticulous is for you. It's a potentially awesome tinkerer's toy, but seems pretty rough in the current state. Scheduled for Christmas, but there are often delays with projects like this - aside from the real risk the that it could fail.

Any machine will make better espresso is you let it heat proper. Even if we are talking about the decent espresso (who is ready in 3-4 mins) it makes better espresso after 15 mins (tested). Even for Lelit Bianca, or e61 old ones or ascaso.

It would be much faster to heat a kettle with water (pre-heat a bre group on the kettle) and pull a shot in less than 5 mins with heating-grinding-prepping- and that would be flair classic or pro (not 58). If time is important for you then I dont think any of the machines you are looking at will be a fit, unless you pull shots after 3 mins rarely.

As for this machine I see it for a group of people who like to tinker/modify/try new things often. When I had the decent espresso I would open a new bag of coffee and finish it in 24 hours because I would experiment with everything to find "answers". From those ±12 shots I would taste all but drink maybe 1 or 2 so it became a waste of money and coffee. After a period I got rid trying to find answers and being curious and went to 1 or 2 basic profiles, then I started to find it's weaknesses and sold it.

The problem I have with this machine from my perspective is the following:
- what I hate the most when pulling shots is when my water reservoir is empty and I must fill it- in every espresso session- meeting irl- that is what we hated most, when we had to refill- this machine needs a refill each shot- that is cheap and annoying. If you ever had a top machine on reservoir and plugged in you understand what i'm saying (the positive is you can use fresh pre-made water).
- the coffee is exposed for too long in a heated group and to air- if you plan to use room temp water it needs more than 5 mins to bring it up to temp (the group too) that can mean a problem.
- while I was pointing out machines that are heated more do better shots (more flavor/better sweetness) i'm afraid this machine will suffer from a low group temp (even if sensors are saying something for the water i'm afraid the temp wont be enough) not talking temp stability as I dont want a stable temp for my shots.
-a feature that annoyed me and other people is the fact that when you press the start button the shot doesnt start. This was super bad on decent, they came up with a solution but not fully- they kept their idle heater temp higher. On most machines when you hit start it starts, on machines like this there is a initiation sequence that takes a lot of time. You are waiting 1 minute to start a 20 sec shot.
- the fact that the drip tray seems rather small and you must purge the shot out to remove the water from the group seems again like something you would do on a cheap machine, or the remove the cup lever style thing. I mean at this point what is the point of stopping the shot at X volume if you will purge the remaining anyway? you can simply remove the cup when you see the desired number and let the rest flow in another catch cup/silicone cup whatever.

Excellent points.

DenisSabou wrote:Any machine will make better espresso is you let it heat proper. Even if we are talking about the decent espresso (who is ready in 3-4 mins) it makes better espresso after 15 mins (tested). Even for Lelit Bianca, or e61 old ones or ascaso.

It would be much faster to heat a kettle with water (pre-heat a bre group on the kettle) and pull a shot in less than 5 mins with heating-grinding-prepping- and that would be flair classic or pro (not 58). If time is important for you then I dont think any of the machines you are looking at will be a fit, unless you pull shots after 3 mins rarely.

As for this machine I see it for a group of people who like to tinker/modify/try new things often. When I had the decent espresso I would open a new bag of coffee and finish it in 24 hours because I would experiment with everything to find "answers". From those ±12 shots I would taste all but drink maybe 1 or 2 so it became a waste of money and coffee. After a period I got rid trying to find answers and being curious and went to 1 or 2 basic profiles, then I started to find it's weaknesses and sold it.

The problem I have with this machine from my perspective is the following:
- what I hate the most when pulling shots is when my water reservoir is empty and I must fill it- in every espresso session- meeting irl- that is what we hated most, when we had to refill- this machine needs a refill each shot- that is cheap and annoying. If you ever had a top machine on reservoir and plugged in you understand what i'm saying (the positive is you can use fresh pre-made water).
- the coffee is exposed for too long in a heated group and to air- if you plan to use room temp water it needs more than 5 mins to bring it up to temp (the group too) that can mean a problem.
- while I was pointing out machines that are heated more do better shots (more flavor/better sweetness) i'm afraid this machine will suffer from a low group temp (even if sensors are saying something for the water i'm afraid the temp wont be enough) not talking temp stability as I dont want a stable temp for my shots.
-a feature that annoyed me and other people is the fact that when you press the start button the shot doesnt start. This was super bad on decent, they came up with a solution but not fully- they kept their idle heater temp higher. On most machines when you hit start it starts, on machines like this there is a initiation sequence that takes a lot of time. You are waiting 1 minute to start a 20 sec shot.
- the fact that the drip tray seems rather small and you must purge the shot out to remove the water from the group seems again like something you would do on a cheap machine, or the remove the cup lever style thing. I mean at this point what is the point of stopping the shot at X volume if you will purge the remaining anyway? you can simply remove the cup when you see the desired number and let the rest flow in another catch cup/silicone cup whatever.

This is just your opinion, what they did was fundamentally just a way to eliminate boiler, tubes and pumps those making it a low maintenance machine, with none of the usual issues in regards to maintenance on traditional machines, in fact this is probably one of the largest selling points of this machine. It's nothing to do about being cheap it's about removing one of the aspects that is a known issue in owning this sort of machine it also allows to experiment with water recipes.

You can warm it up while prepping the basket Lance actually did that.

This is an automated manual lever, purging is part of it, just as it is with a manual. Having large disgusting drip tray is not a selling point unless you running a cafe and do more shots then is the norm for a home. Most people aren't pulling more then a few shots on this sort of machine, this isn't a machine for people who do 12 shots, who are heavy milk drinkers and desire something traditional and something in that direction. This machine is very much for the same crowd as those Flair58 and strietman users, who like capable machines but without the usual maintenance normally associated with it and who has a fondness towards lever style shots.

This sounds like your not really the target audience yourself.

For me it's a plus I have to manually fill it! It's a plus it has no large drip tray, that means less cleaning less issue with bacteria, scale and I can design the water for my coffee without needing to worry about destroying the machine in the process.

I never want to own a machine with a reservoir, boiler or tubes ever again for me those are not selling point in fact the opposite of that. I want a barebones low maintenance solution that is an automated flair58 it's the pinnacle of design in my book for one who almost exclusively drink espresso straight and who tinker with profiles and water. I'm as target audience as can be. It's like everything else important to know whether your target or not. If your into plugged in and boilers this simple could simply not be a worse machine to get.

On the fence here. Very curious but skeptical if it will suit my needs/interests. Like the simplicity of components, but I've never been much of a tinkerer. But that's largely because my machine doesn't really allow it. That live video was a hot mess and did not help the Meticulous case for me.

The bugs galore certainly also put me on the fence in regards to backing it. I might just wait till release and not having to suffer being a beta tester and suffering all the things other owners of espresso machines from KS has previously gone through.

Obviously the price for that is higher investment but with these sort of bugs it might be worth it, especially as there no guarantee this thing ever make it till full production!