Beady79 wrote:Thanks, you were right.
I've been getting lazy checking the temperature lately.
It was probably over 100 degrees for that second shot.

Ok, so I have been playing around the past week and it seems my problem is not related to temperature.
I've been pulling all my shots at around 93 degrees C and my second shot is always getting much less yield and I'm having some channeling issues
I've dialed in my grind size to require only a light tamp, just to make sure I'm consistent with the tamp pressure, so its not that.
It feels like a problem with the machine.

I have been using my Lelit Elizabeth for a number of days now, and all I can say is, wow. Granted, mine is broken with a recessed #1 button and some kind of leak onto the counter after pulling shots, but still, it is working. Clive Coffee is sending me a new one right now. In the meantime, the quality of the coffee is just a different league from my Barista Express. No contest. And, my Niche Zero really makes for a lovely cup, with a consistent pull. I am working out the work flow, but so far so good. I have mine with the Dave Corby custom programming, and I love how it shows you the temperature in the boiler. So easy to control temperature. I am glad I went dual boiler rather than HX machine. Additional pluses that will make living with the machine are the nice big drip tray, easy flushing with buttons 1 and 2, and really easy back flushing. I love the fact that it has programming set up for the back flush. It reminds me of my Barista Express, which was quite easy to clean. With the solenoid arrangement you can back flush regularly without having to deal with the lubrication issues of E61 groups. So I think the livability will be terrific. The tank holds quite a bit of water, and it seems to use the water more judiciously than my Barista Express, so I suspect I will only need to fill it once a week. Granted, a better opening of the tank would help, but I will just use a funnel. And such a simple tank should be reliable without leaks indefinitely. So despite the fact that the one I have right now arrived damaged, I am thrilled with it. Now to learn better tamping and workflow.

Another plus is that I got the Lelit knock box drawer for free. I had no idea how useful it is! My Niche sits on top, and you can pull the drawer out while leveling the coffee and reduce mess. It comes with a handy brush to clean out the basket dry between shots. I love it.

Beady79 wrote:Ok, so I have been playing around the past week and it seems my problem is not related to temperature.
I've been pulling all my shots at around 93 degrees C and my second shot is always getting much less yield and I'm having some channeling issues
I've dialed in my grind size to require only a light tamp, just to make sure I'm consistent with the tamp pressure, so its not that.
It feels like a problem with the machine.

I'd want to rule out the grinder/retention a bit more carefully. less yield from a second shot seems very weird as a machine problem especially if the pressure gauges all look fine when pulling both shots. I guess here are some thoughts on how to isolate that the machine is the issue.

Test #1...just to see the machine: "pull a shot" with no coffee in the basket once for 10sec. Wait your normal time between shots and "pull" an empty basket shot again. Weigh the water outputs to see if there's a difference. if there's a big difference we've got at least some reason to suspect the machine. I would run this test with no pre-infusion, just the pump (see test #3 below for testing for possible pre-infusion derived problems)

Test #2, to see if it's actually grinder (likely retention of day old beans) not the machine. weigh out both shots worth of beans, pull your first shot with the second set of beans that you grind and then your second shot with the first set of beans that you ground. If you're getting less with your second shot (even though it was ground first) then you also have some reason to suspect the machine.

One theory, if it did turn out to be the machine, is that if you're using the pre-infusion from the steam boiler, the first release after heat up might be the culprit (especially if your steam boiler is set high) since the pressure for pre-infusion is all based on the steam boiler. If you've got a big over heat from the initial heat up in the steam boiler perhaps that's causing a big burst of water during preinfusion on the first shot.

So, if you're using pre-infusion....for test #3, before I pulled any shots I'd pull an empty basket until a few seconds after the preinfusion is done and the pump is running then cut it early. Then I would pull two shots and compare the output.

Can anybody confirm whether it's normal for the boiler temp to creep down significantly during idle time? I have my PID set to 93c, and the unit will hold there for awhile, bouncing around a degree or two, but will then drop significantly, all the way to somewhere around 82-84c before ramping back up. It does this with both the factory settings, as well as Dave Corbey's adjusted settings. Is this normal, or is my unit defective? I called the seller (Comiso Coffee) and he said it was normal, but that seems like an awfully large temperature fluctuation for a PID unit. I went for the double boiler over HX for the temperature control, if it's going to swing this wildly maybe I'd be better off just going for a MaraX or something like that.

Have had my V3 about two months now, and only been playing with the preinfusion settings in the Advanced menu. I haven't tried the other advanced changes per Dave Corby. Is everyone's machine calibrated differently, or has the same default settings? If you are making the boiler operating range tighter, would it have much effect on the life of the boiler by switching on/off more frequently?

Firmware 5.05a
My default settings: KPc 2.0 , KIc 0.04 , KDc 1.0 , Bc 30 , KPs 2.0 , KIs 0.00 , KDs 20.0 , Bs 30 , EC 10 , ES 5
Dave Corby: KPc 0.2 , KIc 0.07 , KDc 10 , Bc 30 , KPs 2.0 , KIs 0.00 , KDs 0.0 , Bs 1 , EC 10 , ES 0

So my working theory is that the issue is the 110v power supply. 110v, 15A in the US is quite a bit less power than in Europe, and the total power draw of both boilers fully on is 2400w, which is more than the ~1550W a US outlet can supply. My guess is that when the steam boiler kicks on, it takes priority over the brew boiler, causing the instability. I've been running the unit in eco mode (steam boiler off) and it does seem to be more stable so far, under either the factory or Dave Corbey settings. I had been running the steam boiler pretty high for the added pressure (145c), but I'm thinking I might back it off a bit and see if that puts less stress on the system.

Do any other US users have thoughts on this? If my theory is correct, on the one hand I'd be annoyed that my machine is being limited by the power situation, on the other hand, I guess I'd be glad that my unit is not defective. Does anyone know if there is a 20A adapter for these units? My kitchen is wired for 20A, and I feel like a bit of extra power would help with stability, if that's an option.

I've got a 110 supply, have had my steam boiler as high as 135 or 140 and never noticed the brew boiler dropping low slowly over time.

Swapped out my Elizabeth with Clive, and the new one is here. It is perfect. No leaks, and buttons all fine. I set the PID and other parameters via Dave Corbey in the advanced menus, and I am delighted with it so far. Great coffee. Much better than my Barista Express. Amazing steam power for milk. Great work flow. With regards the tank that everybody complains about, I have put felt pads on the feet of the Elizabeth (and the Lelit knock box drawer with my Niche on it) so it slides very easily on the counter. So simple. When filling the tank, I have a jug and a funnel, and it just takes a second. My tap water is tasty since our city wells are terrific, but has about 120 hardness, so I am using the Lelit in tank water softener filter, and that works great. I pulled some water from the hot water tap and tested it with a strip, and it was nice and soft. I plan to do that weekly until I figure out how often to recharge the water softener filter with salt. I put a black non-skid drawer mesh cut to size on the warming tray to protect it from scratches. That was another Corbey trick. So, love it so far.

Sounds great! I got my Elizabeth through Clive also. Great customer service. By the way, I asked about recharging the water softener & they told me not to, just to replace it every 6 months. I'm finding out why not regarding the recharging.

Yeah felt pads are definitely a must - I don't know what they were thinking with the sticky rubber feet. I was actually wondering if the wood feet for the Mara X work on the elizabeth - somebody sells them on etsy, but i'm not sure if the Elizabeth will accept screw in feet.