La Spaziale S1 Vivaldi II group design and details

Need help with equipment usage or want to share your latest discovery?
CoffeeOwl
Posts: 1096
Joined: 17 years ago

#1: Post by CoffeeOwl »

Hi!
I'm thinking and thinking of buying a good, reliable destination home machine (which can be seen from my posts), and I am willing to spend good money on it.
I was trying to find some info on the S1 group design but with no results.
So my few questions: is the group saturated? what is the preinfusion ( I heard it has some kind of natural preinfusion)?

Since I'm almost decided on dual boiler rotary pump machine, there aren't many options to choose from in this range, so I want to learn as much as I can about them.
Pawel

jmvdigital
Posts: 25
Joined: 17 years ago

#2: Post by jmvdigital »

I won't attempt to answer your questions definitively, but I will offer up the Rimpo S1 site and forums for you to check out. It appears that the S1 has some form of preinfusion, I think it has to do with a small chamber being filled with water before full pressure is reached on the puck. The preinfusion of this machine seems shorter than that of an E61 type machine or a machine that pauses the pump for a second after a bit of initial flow to the puck.

I'm still very much a beginner at a lot of this, but I have nothing but great things to say about my S1 VII! Nice features, good build quality, great tasting espresso, and easy to use.

S1 Forums:
http://s1cafe.com/wforum/

Main Rimpo site:
http://www.rimpo.org/s1/

-J

User avatar
Niko
Posts: 278
Joined: 17 years ago

#3: Post by Niko »

It is a saturated group.
There is a supposedly called natural pre-infusion (whatever that means :? ) - it was never explained to me. When I do put a blind basket in the PF and pull the shot, the pressure builds up almost immediately to about 8 bars and then it climbs into the 9 bar region in the second stage, when I disengage the weapon it's "fire in the hole..." if you don't step back YOU WILL get hit with the backflush (it's that ferocious).

And please do join us at the S1Cafe!

User avatar
HB
Admin
Posts: 21983
Joined: 19 years ago

#4: Post by HB »

Niko wrote:It is a saturated group.
It's been more than three years since I evaluated the S1. I don't recall it having a saturated group, at least in this sense of the word:

Image
From Cutaway of La Marzocco saturated grouphead
There is a supposedly called natural pre-infusion (whatever that means :? ) - it was never explained to me.
The model I evaluated had a flow restrictor in the line leading to the brew boiler, but no preinfusion like the gentle pressure ramp up of an E61 design. Whether that matters is debatable. For example, the Elektra A3 has no preinfusion and near instantaneous brew pressure, yet it's a joyfully forgiving espresso machine.
Dan Kehn

gscace
Posts: 752
Joined: 19 years ago

#5: Post by gscace »

HB wrote:The model I evaluated had a flow restrictor in the line leading to the brew boiler, but no preinfusion like the gentle pressure ramp up of an E61 design. Whether that matters is debatable. For example, the Elektra A3 has no preinfusion and near instantaneous brew pressure, yet it's a joyfully forgiving espresso machine.
In the sense of the Marzocco, it ain't no saturated group. The group bolts to the end of the horizontal brew boiler and hangs off in space. Heat conducts through the brass group, which is pretty compact, so there's not an egregious amount of temperature drop. It's more than a Marzocco, though, and it's not as stable as a marzocco, although it's more so than the e-61 machines I have experience with (a good number now).

Near as I can tell there ain't no steeeeenkin pre-infusion. Mine has a water debit similar to a Marzocco with 0.6mm gicleurs, so I imagine that it has such in the flow path somewhere. It builds pressure very similarly to a Marzocco.

It's a fine machine and a good value here in da states. I have one at my office. It doesn't like to be updosed. It's got plenty of steam when run in 20 AMp mode (here in da states we have 120V and 60 hz). European ones should have great steaming. I've used mine to cater some pretty large parties where I built drinks non-stop for 3 hours. It's pretty much at it's limit doing that, but it will do it.

So it's a nice solid machine for the money. I prefer double boiler machines over hx, all things being equal. The Spaz steams better than most if not all of the small e-61 machines. Larger 1-groups might give it a run for its money if the machine is in US trim with 120V heaters.

Lemme know if you have more questions about it. FWIW, the level of temperature control, preinfusion style etc don't mean squat if you don't use good raw materials (coffee), have a good grinder, and good technique. I would obsess less over machine styles and more over getting a really good grinder, sourcing fresh high quality coffee and developing first-rate barista skills.

-Greg

poison
Posts: 474
Joined: 18 years ago

#6: Post by poison »

Sorry to butt in here, but I have a question for Scace: How does the Vivaldi work on a 15A circuit?

User avatar
timo888
Posts: 2467
Joined: 18 years ago

#7: Post by timo888 »

What is the meaning of saturated group as you guys use the term? I had been understanding it (wrongly?) to mean heat-saturated, i.e. the metal has little heat-sink capacity, and the water temperature coming out of the brew boiler is lower than it would be with a single-boiler; as the water passes through the saturated group, it would need to lose less of its heat. Isn't the S1's group stainless steel versus the brass of the E61?

Regards
Timo

User avatar
jesawdy
Posts: 1547
Joined: 18 years ago

#8: Post by jesawdy »

timo888 wrote:What is the meaning of saturated group as you guys use the term? I had been understanding it (wrongly?) to mean heat-saturated, i.e. the metal has little heat-sink capacity, and the water temperature coming out of the brew boiler is lower than it would be with a single-boiler; as the water passes through the saturated group, it would need to lose less of its heat.
If you click through Dan's link, Cutaway of La Marzocco saturated grouphead, it's discussed a bit. Nearly the entire grouphead is filled with brew temperature water from the brew water boiler, and hence "saturated".
Jeff Sawdy

jmvdigital
Posts: 25
Joined: 17 years ago

#9: Post by jmvdigital »

poison wrote:Sorry to butt in here, but I have a question for Scace: How does the Vivaldi work on a 15A circuit?
Poison, I'm not exactly sure what your question is. The VII can be ordered in either a 15A or 20A configuration. If you order the 20A version, it can be set to run in "economy" mode, which is 15A. In the 20A version, both the boilers (and all pumps) can operate all at once, drawing pretty close to the 20A max. The 15A version (or the 20A in "economy") limits the power to only operate one boiler at a time. Meaning that the group boiler gets priority, and the steam boiler gets to turn on secondary when the group boiler is at proper temperature. I have the 20A, so I have no experience with the 15A, but my understanding is that there would be little difference for the average home brewer. If you're doing alot of steaming and brewing in short order (i.e., small commercial or for a dinner party), you might be slowed down quite a bit since the boilers take more time to recover.

I doubt the 15A version reduces your steaming power any, unless, like I said earlier, you are doing many drinks in succession. The difference in amperage is only felt when you increase the speed at which you need to make drinks. For a few shots and a capp in the morning, you probably would never know the difference. My $.02.

If it's all the same to you, I would order the 20A version, and just run in it "econ" mode. That way if you do notice an annoying lag heat up time, you can make the necessary electrical changes to your home to run a 20A circuit.

-J

poison
Posts: 474
Joined: 18 years ago

#10: Post by poison »

Sorry, jvm, I was unclear, but you answered my question anyway. Thanks! :D

Post Reply