JetSteam Espresso Machine... Who wants one of these? - Page 2

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naked_barista

#11: Post by naked_barista »

Ken Fox wrote:I'd be surprised if the company is still around for SCAA 2008.
ken
Why?

Larry
larry at laurelnet dot com

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HB
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#12: Post by HB »

naked_barista wrote:Why?
Not to speak for Ken, but the commercial espresso equipment market is highly competitive. There are companies with a long track record and worldwide support structure that sell for less than the JetStream offering (La Marzocco GS3 and the Nuova Simonelli Aurelia being two obvious examples). It isn't easy for a newcomer to break into this crowded space.
Dan Kehn

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TimEggers

#13: Post by TimEggers »

Just out of curiosity I must ask: what is the function of the ample space between the brew group and the cup?
Tim Eggers
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LMWDP #202

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HB
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#14: Post by HB »

TimEggers wrote:what is the function of the ample space between the brew group and the cup?
Clearance for 20+ ounce to-go latte cups. And no, I am not joking. The "big gulp" cups are a problem for today's cafe owners in the US and manufacturers are responding by raising the group.
Dan Kehn

Ken Fox

#15: Post by Ken Fox »

naked_barista wrote:Why?

Larry
(1) Too Expensive

(2) Unknown company with no track record; unproven, non-standard technology and parts = dollars down the road to any intelligent buyer

(3) Solution searching for a problem

(4) Too Expensive

(5) No clearly defined market with enough players who can both afford it and will buy it

(6) Designed to an idea, not to a price (see #s 1, 3, 4, and 5). "Gee, wouldn't it be cool if we made a machine like THAT!"

(7) Business School 1st Semester Core Curriculum (see #s 1-6)

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955

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Marshall

#16: Post by Marshall »

Ken Fox wrote:(6) Designed to an idea, not to a price (see #s 1, 3, 4, and 5). "Gee, wouldn't it be cool if we made a machine like THAT!"
You can also:

A. Set a quality or novelty standard that lets you set your own price. This worked for Mercedes for decades.

B. Create a new category.

To the average shop owner, espresso machines are largely fungible. They'll take what their roaster recommends (or lends them) or whatever is cheapest or has the best local service.

A truly distinctive machine that is eye-catching to customers and lets them see the whole barista show could help a shop distinguish itself from its competitors. It also uses a minimum of space and can fit into delis and pastry shops that might find a normal machine a tight squeeze.

Personally, I'd take a GS3. But, if this machine produces a good espresso and the developers establish an effective service network, all these advantages could justify the extra initial cost for the shopowner. It could also be a hit in the "damn the expense" home decor market.
Marshall
Los Angeles

Ken Fox

#17: Post by Ken Fox replying to Marshall »

I think this logic might work if it was the product of a well known manufacturer who was merely extending their line with a new model. Unless these folks are better capitalized than were my impressions, I think my assessment is more likely to be borne out, than this is the next Mercedes or Lexus to hit the marketplace.

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955

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mrgnomer

#18: Post by mrgnomer »

I don't know, I'm new to equipment and still learning after 3 years.

However, what JetSteam offers is a good idea that can be modified. With such an emphasis on control I'm aware that LaMarzocco, Nuova Simonelli, Synesso, Versalab..., are designing their machines for control and consistency. This one is focused on control and consistency as well and in a novel way. Lot's of room for tweaking and as a new company I would imagine they might very well be more flexible than older, more established companies to design modifications and changes.

Maintaining a big grouphead with a 40W heater set for 200F may not be the best thing from what I know. PIDing it which is what was suggested they are considering, is. Or a thermosyphon loop fed by a fixed brew temp. Now that might be neat. Display the thermosyphon temp and grouphead temp to give an operator troubleshooting feedback.

The height of the group above the counter doesn't have to be fixed either. Their design might easily be modified to offer variable heights. That would be really be interesting too.

Having all the guts easily accessible is a great idea as well and increases the machine's ease of maintainance, servicing and flexibility, IMHO. This is the ground floor of a design that could really be tweaked and developed into something special, I think.
Kirk
LMWDP #116
professionals do it for the pay, amateurs do it for the love

Ken Fox

#19: Post by Ken Fox replying to mrgnomer »

I think these are good points.

However, in the history of design and innovation, it is seldom the new entrant into a crowded field like this who will successfully pull off something like this. It is more likely, in my view, that they will suffer the fate of most new businesses, and eventually, to the extent that any of their ideas are truly practical, they will show up, bit by bit, in the machines of already established players in this crowded marketplace.

Just my unfortunate prediction.

Also, I might add, that none of us commenting on this thread has ever tasted an espresso made by this machine. I would reserve overall judgment until one was evaluating more than specifications and appearance of a machine that is not in production and has no approvals from governing regulators.

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955

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mrgnomer

#20: Post by mrgnomer replying to Ken Fox »

True too. Not being a business guy I couldn't say from experience but intuitively I'd say it could go either way. Depends on how responsive and flexible the company is. Depends as well on how it takes failures. If you can hang in through the painful failures and learn from them it could just take one success to break even and push over the top. It's a gamble for sure.

From what I know there's a great deal about espresso extraction that's still not known. It could still be anyone's game. Innovations in machine design keep addressing new factors in espresso extraction. Anyone could hit on something to bring their equipment up to a new, maybe next level. The big manufacturers are in a better position for r+d, though, 'tis true.

Very true about in the cup. Innovations in design look good but the consistent taste of the product would be a bigger consideration to me too.
Kirk
LMWDP #116
professionals do it for the pay, amateurs do it for the love