I think we need to clarify what's really the problem to stablish a starting point.

- If you are not getting any foam, or getting too little - It's your technique, not the machine.

- If you are getting foam with big bubbles like 80's classic cappuccinos - It's your technique, not the machine.

- If you're getting a fine foam which when your pour it just falls like a soft cotton ball - It's your technique, not the machine.

- If you're getting microfoam which allows to make a simple heart or a blurry rosetta - It's your technique and the machine starts to showing its limits.

- If you're getting microfoam which allows to make hearts and rosettas that looks average/good but not amazing - It's the machine.

- If you're getting microfoam which allows to make ultrasharp rosettas like this:
- You're not using a Duetto or any other prosumer machine.

I don't think prosumer machines can make quality microfoam like a professional machine. Of course you can get good results, but probably not always -low repeteability- and you'll need to work hard on your technique to avoid the shortcomings of the machine. To me, this is like using a Vario to make coffee; you need 'extra-techniques- WDT, nutating,... to pull good shots, but not always will work.

Viernes wrote:I think we need to clarify what's really the problem to stablish a starting point.

- If you are not getting any foam, or getting too little - It's your technique, not the machine.

I can get a nice top layer of velvety microfoam virtually every single time (half inch to an inch)

Viernes wrote: - If you are getting foam with big bubbles like 80's classic cappuccinos - It's your technique, not the machine.

- If you're getting a fine foam which when your pour it just falls like a soft cotton ball - It's your technique, not the machine.

I can only get a fine foam on the top layer, then its just steamed milk underneath

Viernes wrote:
- If you're getting microfoam which allows to make a simple heart or a blurry rosetta - It's your technique and the machine starts to showing its limits.

- If you're getting microfoam which allows to make hearts and rosettas that looks average/good but not amazing - It's the machine.

I've never been able to get any latte art

Viernes wrote: - If you're getting microfoam which allows to make ultrasharp rosettas like this:

- You're not using a Duetto or any other prosumer machine.

I don't think prosumer machines can make quality microfoam like a professional machine. Of course you can get good results, but probably not always -low repeteability- and you'll need to work hard on your technique to avoid the shortcomings of the machine. To me, this is like using a Vario to make coffee; you need 'extra-techniques- WDT, nutating,... to pull good shots, but not always will work.

What is the difference between steaming on a Duetto or prosumer machine and using a commercial machine? Pressure and stability? I can ramp this machine up to 2 BAR but by the time I'm done steaming its at .5 BAR. Would that be the culprit?

Also, let me ask this: when we are talking micro foam, are we talking, thick all the way through? So from top to bottom, consistent microfoam thickness? Like I said, I can get a nice top, but only about 1/5th of the pitcher.

haunce wrote:Also, let me ask this: when we are talking micro foam, are we talking, thick all the way through? So from top to bottom, consistent microfoam thickness? Like I said, I can get a nice top, but only about 1/5th of the pitcher.

No. AFAIK that's not possible. There's always some unfoamed milk. You need to mix the foamy milk with the milk as much as you can to get an homogeneous mix. This is why you need to keep rolling the milk, like a whirpool.

Check this out:
1 Phase - Incorporate air
2 Phase - Rolling (Mixing)

Posted this guide:

How to use Sproline tips on Izzo Alex Duetto II = Perfect Microfoam

My two pennies worth. I think the steam tip is in to deep at the start. I think the tip of the steam wand needs to be just touching the surface of the milk incorporating a little air until it stretches and then the tip plunged in a little further until up to temp. Sorry I can't be more technical. Not much to go on but it works for me

A couple of things. One, I find it much better if you point the wand toward the front of the machine instead of off to the side when you steam. Unfortunately, the drip tray gets in the way of pointing the wand directly toward you on Alex, but you can still point it almost all the way forward.

Also, you should tilt the pitcher a bit toward yourself and put the steam tip near the surface and close to the right edge of the pitcher, at about the three o'clock position. This sets up a nice whirlpool in the milk.

I don't hear the sucking sound of air being drawn into the milk on the first phase, which tells me you're not pulling any air into the milk, so your foam is coming out more like hot milk than microfoam. Trying surfing the tip near the surface for a few seconds, then sinking the tip a bit and letting the milk spin until it's too hot to touch the pitcher.

That brings me to another point. It seems like you're steaming for a really long time. It shouldn't be more than 30 seconds to get the milk to 140 degrees or so. Are you using your hand to judge temp? It didn't look like you were even touching the pitcher. You should use your hand to gauge when to stop steaming, and shut the steam down when the pitcher is too hot to touch.

Here's my video of milk steaming, which I did with my old Anita, but the technique with Alex is basically the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFkkGX5F ... plpp_video

haunce wrote:Here is the video I promised, in HD. Its two back to back steams in one video. Temperature is 256 degrees at 1.5 BAR. What you see is the highest quality I have been able to get on this machine with any tip or wand. Keep in mind this is with the Sproline Vortex tip.

I couldn't see your second pass (hand on valve blocked the wand), but in the first it looked like the wand -- and the circulation -- were more or less vertical, with a lot of disorganized up-and-down turbulence. I know your tip and its instructions are different, but I would have hoped to see more of a horizontal vortex, which works for me, albeit with stock tip, introduced at an angle (~12-15deg from vertical) and tangentially near the side wall. It may contradict your tip's instructions, but it may be a direction to explore.

As for the finished product, it would be more telling to pour it into espresso, regardless of what you think of your art abilities. As far as I know, I have never poured my foamed milk into an empty cup, so I have little idea how it should look.

Microfoam and rosetta's take time to learn. Any prosumer machine is capable of achieving good results in their stock form. MY experience comes from a cheapo steam toy and then a Rocket HX. Should be the same for products from Quickmill, Izzo, etc. in the same category.

It does indeed look like you are not stretching the milk very much. You should hear sucking sounds from air going into the milk for the first 10-20 seconds depending on the amount of milk being steamed.

When you learn to stretch right, you will probably overdo it and get too much foam on top and not enough incorporation. You will then learn to tone down the stretch and spend more time incorporating (whirlpool, vortex, whatever you want to call it). I've found that when i think i still need to stretch, it's probably a good time to stop.

Sure, prosumer machines are limited in the sense that boilers are small and the amount of stable pressure steam is limited. For example, my Rocket has trouble foaming milk for two or three cappas at a time, pressure starts to run quite low toward the end (like 0.5 bar) which hurts the incorporation phase.

Here are a few examples of latte art made on a totally stock Rocket, took me the better part of a YEAR to learn this consistently making two cappas per day in the morning. Keep it up!!







It ain't close to the previous pour that was posted but it's enough to put a smile on most of your guests!

haunce wrote:Here is the video I promised, in HD.

You need to incorporate more air at first. Otherwise the milk will be too thin.
I don't know how works that tip, but I think it's designed to keep the steam wand on the center of the pitcher to create a whirpool automatically. Problem is you don't have enough space with the drip tray.


Nice rosettas spiffdude And I agree, it takes a lot of time to get decent microfoam.

Saw this on HB's twitter feed:

HB wrote:Sproline Vortex steam tip follow-up: At 1.2+ bar, straight down into the pitcher works well. At < 1.0 bar, it requires angled finessing.

I wonder if you are having trouble staying above 1.2bar? You might PM Dan and see what 'angle finessing' worked for him when the pressure drops.