Is lead in espresso machines an issue? - Page 2
- baldheadracing
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The OP's situation (Lelit Elizabeth) had an answer from Lelit posted here a few months ago:
The upper part of the boiler, is made of CW510L alloy ...
The upper part of the boiler, is made of CW510L alloy ...
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada
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Usually only a problem when someone makes an enormous error in water treatment, or as in the case of Flint Michigan, fires the only people who knew how to manage water quality. Most older municipal water systems in the US contain some lead piping, but it is safely encapsulated in mineral deposits, managed by maintaining a certain level of total hardness in the water therein.Portlandia wrote: That's comforting!
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I believe that would conform to our 2014 specification for "lead free" brass fittings used in potable water systems. I believe our current spec is 0.25%, and their CW510L is quoted at 0.2%.baldheadracing wrote:The OP's situation (Lelit Elizabeth) had an answer from Lelit posted here a few months ago:
The upper part of the boiler, is made of CW510L alloy ...
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It's also known as zero lead brass and is silvery in colour.
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That's also the answer I got from Lelit. However it doesn't tell me anything from what I have to expect, maybe because I am not a chemist. For instance, what if I have a pregnant guests, shouldn't I give them a cappuccino because of the brass boiler in the Elizabeth and the potential lead contamination. What I am trying to say is that I have absolutely no reference point what this does mean in real numbers and was hoping some else digged deep into this topic.baldheadracing wrote:The OP's situation (Lelit Elizabeth) had an answer from Lelit posted here a few months ago:
The upper part of the boiler, is made of CW510L alloy ...
Sure I can trust regulations in EU and sure we have contamination everywhere. I was just curious. And also I am wondering why brass, why not just stainless steel, also considering that lelit says that stainless steel is the future (referencing their mara x demo video). As I said, for me it seems like the more bulletproof option regarding any contamination concerns would be a BDB but I somehow like the PI stuff (steam pressure stuff) and the silent pump in the Elizabeth more. Trying to understand if there is any real risk.
My concern may appear stupid..
- Jeff
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The likely answers to "why brass if they are marketing stainless as the future" are that brass is probably still less expensive, especially with fabrication involved and the key word in the second phrase is "marketing".
Nobody is likely to tell you that there is significant risk as that would suggest provable product liability. That doesn't mean that there is no risk. Anyone that tells you that there is no risk is likely either considering "slight" or "tiny" as "none".
Risk is relative. You can't avoid it. You can chose which additional risks you're willing to take on. Do you choose not to offer your guests water from your tap? A few hundred mL of that water potentially contains more lead that what would be in an espresso. Do you turn them away at your door because your apartment/home might have been painted with lead paint decades ago, for decades? Same with the concern around plastics. There's apparently significant content in take-away food wrapper and containers. I'm not saying any of this is good. There are even "known carcinogens" in roasted coffee that, at one point, necessitated a warning label. It's up to you to make a decision around if the risk is significant, or just "in the noise".
Nobody is likely to tell you that there is significant risk as that would suggest provable product liability. That doesn't mean that there is no risk. Anyone that tells you that there is no risk is likely either considering "slight" or "tiny" as "none".
Risk is relative. You can't avoid it. You can chose which additional risks you're willing to take on. Do you choose not to offer your guests water from your tap? A few hundred mL of that water potentially contains more lead that what would be in an espresso. Do you turn them away at your door because your apartment/home might have been painted with lead paint decades ago, for decades? Same with the concern around plastics. There's apparently significant content in take-away food wrapper and containers. I'm not saying any of this is good. There are even "known carcinogens" in roasted coffee that, at one point, necessitated a warning label. It's up to you to make a decision around if the risk is significant, or just "in the noise".
- baldheadracing
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Sorry, I tried writing a reply for, ah, quite a while, but I couldn't answer your question in a reasonably understandable way. (I used to work in biomonitoring, which informs the establishment of those reference points.)oksako wrote:That's also the answer I got from Lelit. However it doesn't tell me anything from what I have to expect, maybe because I am not a chemist. For instance, what if I have a pregnant guests, shouldn't I give them a cappuccino because of the brass boiler in the Elizabeth and the potential lead contamination. What I am trying to say is that I have absolutely no reference point what this does mean in real numbers and was hoping some else digged deep into this topic.
Sure I can trust regulations in EU and sure we have contamination everywhere. I was just curious.
Brass (and copper) have different thermal characteristics than stainless steel. If you take a brass design and replicate it in stainless steel, then the machine will work differently. Espresso machines were traditionally designed in brass and copper, so new designs are needed, new manufacturing, etc.oksako wrote:And also I am wondering why brass, why not just stainless steel, also considering that lelit says that stainless steel is the future (referencing their mara x demo video). As I said, for me it seems like the more bulletproof option regarding any contamination concerns would be a BDB but I somehow like the PI stuff (steam pressure stuff) and the silent pump in the Elizabeth more. Trying to understand if there is any real risk.
There is also economics. Casting and machining brass is much easier that stainless steel so almost all groups are made of brass. On the other hand, a boiler is a relatively simple shape, so with modern welding technology it is now less expensive to make a boiler out of stainless steel than brass.
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada
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I wonder how many years it will be until we find some reason why stainless steel is killing us all.
Then it will be back to copper... or ceramics.
Then it will be back to copper... or ceramics.
- baldheadracing
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Stainless steel is not what you want to consume. Consuming too much iron or chromium or nickel is not good (so don't scratch your stainless cookware).
Copper leaching is why almost all copper cookware is plated inside. About the only places where unplated copper is still used is in vessels for making booze or chocolate, and water-only kettles, boilers, and pipes (because those uses shouldn't leach copper unless the fluid is acidic).
Ceramics still use lead glazes (lead makes glazes shiny). Get a lead test kit if you want to scare yourself.
... and then there are all the micro-plastics inside of you.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to pull an espresso with my vintage machine that has a lead brass boiler, group, and portafilter. (I flush all the water out when I turn the machine on, just like old-school baristas used to do.) This evening I'll have a whisky in a crystal glass (24%+ lead oxide).
Copper leaching is why almost all copper cookware is plated inside. About the only places where unplated copper is still used is in vessels for making booze or chocolate, and water-only kettles, boilers, and pipes (because those uses shouldn't leach copper unless the fluid is acidic).
Ceramics still use lead glazes (lead makes glazes shiny). Get a lead test kit if you want to scare yourself.
... and then there are all the micro-plastics inside of you.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to pull an espresso with my vintage machine that has a lead brass boiler, group, and portafilter. (I flush all the water out when I turn the machine on, just like old-school baristas used to do.) This evening I'll have a whisky in a crystal glass (24%+ lead oxide).
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada
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My acceptance of this information depends on the type, brand, and age of the whiskey.