Is body of espresso on the DE1 thinner? - Page 3

#21: Post by **RyanP** » June 9th, 2019, 3:06 pm

Just another reference point - coming from a CT1 and Londinium R I don't notice much if any difference in mouthfeel on my DE1. Zero experience with e61.

#22: Post by **CwD** » June 9th, 2019, 3:18 pm

Having had the same experience with the CT1, I'd like to build on that by mentioning it's easy to build pressure faster than any pump machine ever sold with it. You can slam down on that lever and it's immediately pushing down on the coffee with no buildup time. Headspace is also minimal. But, like the DE1, it comes with precision (IMS for the Strietman) baskets out of the box. Just throw in some like Rancilio OEM baskets if you find there aren't any profiles that give you the desired body.

#23: Post by **another_jim** » June 9th, 2019, 4:21 pm

CwD wrote:Body is likely nothing more than sediment.

Is this based on years of cupping and assigning scores for the sample's body? In my experience doing precisely this; body has never had anything at all to do with sediment. My experience drinking espresso is longer but less formal; but I'm fairly certain mouthfeel in espresso has nothing to do with sediment either. So what is the basis for your claim?

June 9th, 2019, 4:40 pm

Being able to actually centrifuge out sediment for observation to connect with taste observations. I'm not talking about French Press like silt, I'm talking about the microscopic sediment that you will never see in coffee without centrifuging it out so it forms a sort of rock-like ball or viewing it under a microscope. If you're not doing that for every shot, you've no way of making the connection, the stuff is just about invisible.

Perhaps I misspoke in saying "only source of body" instead of "only source of difference in body". I don't think it's the only source, the actual coffee matters too. But I do think it is the one and only source of body that would ever differ between machines using the exact same profile, and could only feasibly come from differences in basket design.

#25: Post by **NelisB** » June 9th, 2019, 4:50 pm

Body has nothing to do with Robusta. Robusta gives heavy crema, but this has nothing to do with the body of an espresso.
I don't think body comes from sediment, oils seem a better option.
Body comes from adequate developed roasts, but don't need to be dark.

I had beautiful bodied espresso from the Londinium of [anonymized].
My Lambro doesn't give much body. I think my PI pressure (1.2 bar) is too low.
KvdW Speedster gives a huge body. Also Synesso Hydra and Slayer givev a beautiful body. All with no Robusta.

#26: Post by **another_jim** » June 9th, 2019, 5:07 pm

CwD wrote:Being able to actually centrifuge out sediment for observation to connect with taste observations.

I have to apologize, you may be right; although in a non-obvious way.

I did a pair of early aughts style espresso porn/Schomer shots, one with a circular paper filter at the bottom of the basket, one without. The one without was true espresso porn: top to bottom mouth coating crema. The paper filtered shot looked like espresso porn pouring, but had a sad little coin's depth of crema, and no mouth coating action at all. So the sediments getting through the basket's holes, but not the paper filter's weave, were essential to crema formation.

Their contribution to mouthfeel has nothing to do with their direct contribtion to the tactile sensations, but in the way they catalyze crema formation.

#27: Post by **NelisB** » June 9th, 2019, 5:20 pm

I don't agree that the body comes from crema. Actually, I don't like the taste of crema at all.

Also wines can have a great body. Often new world wines, but I also had Chablis from old vines that had huge body, like sipping sirup.

#28: Post by **Denis** » June 9th, 2019, 5:40 pm

The oil in a more developed roast can go inside the cup and help while tasting to cover some receptors in your mouth. If the coffee has oil in (as an emulsion) then it has more body/ the viscosity is higher, you can see this on the walls of the cup. This helps in some cases to mask the rancid, burning, bitter taste in some second crack coffee lovers. Taking that away will just result in a cup that you cannot drink with the eyes open.

Gas mixed with coffee extracts create the crema, if you use a fresh coffee (1-3 days post roast)and a high temp, you can pull out a lot of crema. We can see that a 3-month-old coffee or a coffee that has been kept outside with O2 doesn't develop a lot of crema, and that is because the majority of the gasses trapped inside the bean structure are gone.

For me, crema or body is not an indicator of good taste, but as you can see, some people need the body/ crema to create a better taste experience.

From my experience, the gas that is inside the bean, and creates the crema (alot of people want crema) block the extraction of aroma/flavor. I prefer anytime aroma/flavor than crema.

#29: Post by **another_jim** » June 9th, 2019, 6:06 pm

Denis wrote:For me, crema or body is not an indicator of good taste, but as you can see, some people need the body/ crema to create a better taste experience.

Trust me, when you pull coarse grind, no head space, under-extracted espresso porn shots with contemporary blends; you need the huge crema to mask the taste.

But if you use inoffensive blends that benefit from under-extraction, roasted to heavy caramel flavors, with precisely blended, tiny hints of fruits and distillates, for this style of shot; you have the classic early aughts, Seattle espresso. When done right, my guess is that 9 out of 10 coffee lovers would still prefer them to well shots in the contemporary style.

#30: Post by **RapidCoffee** » June 9th, 2019, 10:28 pm

CwD wrote:Since there isn't a rotary pump machine that actually builds rapid pressure in the group, it doesn't really matter that the pump could theoretically be used that way. Especially since the same claims don't exist about other vibe pump or gear pump machines. Body is likely nothing more than sediment. Just throw in baskets that let more sediment through if body is your game, use a profile that mimics the machine you prefer the body of, and see if you've gotten the effect you want.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the first statement, but it's obvious that the rotary pump on my Spaziale S1 has a higher water debit than the DE1 (12ml/s vs 8ml/s), and furthermore, that it achieves this flow rate faster (almost immediately). This translates to a significantly faster ramp up of puck pressure.

One of my DE1 body/mouthfeel experiments compared an old nonprecision Gaggia basket with precision DE1 baskets. I did not find any obvious difference in body/mouthfeel; shots still tasted like DE1 extractions, not Spaz extractions. So no, I don't think it's only the basket (although that could certainly be one factor).