Thanks Dan, will definitely read.

Edit: Conclusion after reading. The Vesuvius is a damn capable machine able to make repeatedly great shots equal to +/- machines 2x or more it's price. The newish squatier look of the Slayer and KVDW machines do make for sexier looking hardware on the counter.

Redbone
Very good point will have to see who answers this to see

Preinfusion seems to be one of the more confusing and misunderstood topics in the espresso world. I'll give my thoughts and experiences with it and why I think it's important. FYI I have never used a machine without preinfusion though, and don't know if I ever will.

The Aurelia we use has their patented SIS (soft infusion system). It's a pretty simple and effective system. It uses line pressure for its preinfusion for 3-4 seconds (hard to time exactly when I hear the pump kick on) and then slowly ramps up to pressure over 10 seconds.



Now this type of preinfusion is really only good for one thing, CONSISTENCY. This pretty much negates any flaw in prepping technique and makes shot after shot the exact same way, or pretty darn close in my experience. Using preinfusion this way doesn't really affect flavor or provide you with the ability to grind finer or extract more from light roasted, bright coffees. Which leads me to the other reason to use preinfusion IMO.

Ill try to explain how preinfusion is used to affect flavor and extraction with a experiment I just did this last weekend. I just received a Pharos 2 weeks ago and was putting it through its paces. I had a light roasted Ethiopian idido on hand that was just delicious as batch brew in my shop. I wanted to see how the Pharos tackled this coffee. I took it to work and tried to get a drinkable shot using the Pharos and the Aurelia and an 18g VST basket. It just wasn't possible. Even with 18.5 grams in, 45 out for 40 seconds. Everything I did ended up being sour and just plain bad, while also being a tad bitter. (which I find in a lot of coffee shops these days, people putting light roasted coffees into a linea, using a robur, and giving me sour insanely acidic gut churning espresso).

I then took the same coffee home and used the Pharos with my commercial spring lever machine, a 2 group Astoria. It took me about 5 shots to get the shot out of the sour range, but when I did it was simply superb and tasted like strawberries, blueberries, and a hint of cocoa. It all came down to preinfusion.

Using the lever machine I am able to preinfuse at 1 bar for any amount of time I want, and then do a second stage preinfusion of 3-4 bar for as long as I want. As I'm sure everyone knows the idea behind this is simply being able to grind finer and be able to extract more from the coffee without turning it bitter. I ended up doing 18.2 in VST 18g, 40 out, a 20 second preinfusion, and then raising the lever to about the 45 degree mark and doing a 7 second 2nd stage preinfusion, and then releasing the lever for a total shot time of around 55 seconds. Being able to use preinfusion here allowed me to explore this coffee in a completely different way and was one of the best shots I've had all year.

So is preinfusion important? I suppose it matters on what your goal is. I think it's an important and interesting part of espresso extraction. In one instance it gives me consistency and reliable extractions. In another it allows me to grind finer, and extract more out of a coffee. Hope this helps in some way.

It's worth noting that the shot on the lever wasn't only good because of preinfusion alone. The lever also pressure profiles the whole shot and not just the preinfusion. It has a declining profile for temperature and pressure. So basically what a synesso and slayer shot mimics, just in a different way.

Elle jay cafe
Thank you very much, my goal is to have a perfect cup of coffee and taste the different notes in each blend
I'm roasting my own for a few years in a self made 2 kg gas roaster and love it
Now I'm trying to get to the next level of espresso
I have a LaCimbali junior and a mazzer mini for the last few years , bought the vet 18 gr baskets and it's going well
I recently just upgraded my mazzer mini to a Compak E10 that should be here next week
Also desacaleddescaled my machine as I do every 3 months so that's good
Just checked the group pressure and I'm at 8 bar so have to adjust that to 9 or a little over

While doing all of this I have considered the newer LaMarzocco gs3 paddle then tomorrow going to see a Slayer at a demo downtown Chicago

I greatly appreciate your atrticle and notes makes perfect sense, may have to upgrade my lacimbali to a more versatile unit at the end of the year

Thank you
Bill

I hope so the grinder that is
Just checked my pump pressure and was at 8 bar adjusted to 8.6 but looks like that's all there is
Looking forwad to the Compak arriving
Will work with that combo and my m21 junior as it's a ht exchanger
Might just stop with the preinfusion
Ion mod $450 and new pump $150 ?
And get into a slayer

Thanks for your posts
Love the Reno area we're looking at getting a place in Incline Village close to there

Bill

spressomon wrote:Bill, you are going to be pleasantly surprised with the output your new grinder brings to you; it will bring substantial and pleasant differences to your espresso game.

While I love my Slayer and what incredible flavors I can extract especially with all things light roasts, I believe its just another 'tool in the tool box'. Each machine I have owned & used has its own unique style when it comes to the signature personality it imparts to espresso flavor.

There was a barista here in Reno, who worked a Linea at The Hub Coffee, a number of years ago that could push out stellar espresso on an 'old school' Linea that still to this day remains a benchmark for intense flavor, profiled and knock your socks off incredibly delicious espresso; best I have ever tasted anywhere. I remember each shot he pulled for me ... and that was 5-years ago!

I believe the barista's skill set has more to do with what gets in the cup than the espresso machine. Hands on training from a real pro is still under-rated but will contribute to the biggest differences in the cup of any variable we chase.

I wasn't implying that people couldn't use old school lineas to make some of the best espresso possible. Just that the coffee I was working with didn't work on a machine that didn't have the ability to do along preinfusion, pressure profiling shot. The only way to extract more and get away from the sourness is too grind finer which would have choked my machine, nothing to do with barista skill just the nature of fruity, acidic, light roasted coffee. The linea, with zero preinfusion, would have tasted more sour simply based on the coffee i was using. I'm sure the baristas coffee was roasted perfectly for their linea, the Ethiopian I was using was roasted for filter. Not underdeveloped at all, was just too sour when done on a typical machine like my Aurelia. If wanting to use the coffee for espresso I would have asked my roaster to roast it that way and it would have turned out delicious, although different from the lever shot. I would choose my Aurelia over any profiling machine almost any day in a commercial setting. The shot I did on the lever would be hard to replicate over and over again. I was just hating on shops doing underdeveloped light roasted coffees using roburs and lineas, which I think we can all agree is too common these days.

moreshots wrote:I have a lacimbali m21 that can be upgraded to have passive pre infusion for $450 is it worth it?
Thanks
Bill

It's good to have but probably not worth $450 to upgrade.

Wayne I'm thinking the $450 is better spent on a new unit
Like a Slayer