Frustration with Breville Barista Express
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sirocco
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 5 years ago
Hello all, I have been struggling with the Breville Barista Express. My shots seem to come out bitter/sour (I got no idea which one). I used a version of this machine years ago with the same roast (without the smart grinder pro, and without the 3rd party tamp) and had consistently great results even though I was more of a beginner knowledge wise then I am now. Frustrating! I am new to the community and trying to improve my technique and would love some help, so here it goes.
-My Equipment is as follows:-
-Breville Barista Express
-Breville Smart Grinder Pro (was told the grinder is not fine grained and consistent enough in the barista express)
-Hario Scale
-Luxhaus Calibrated 53mm Tamp for Consistency in Pressure (I know this is entry level but I needed to practice consistency). Is it possible the calibrated tamp on this takes too much pressure? At least its consistent, which I thought was more important than pressure level itself.
-Starbucks Espresso Roast Whole Bean from the Store (I know this is considered trash, but I am a fan of the intense smoky tones, and have not been able to find a similar profile on a fresher roast - I never had a problem with these in the past)
-Some things I have done in my process learned from this board already or details that may be of use otherwise:-
-Increase Temp of machine to +4*F since it likes to chill (I tried the stock setting and +4*F - but didn't seem to make much a difference)
-Let warm up for minimum of 15 minutes.
-I am using the single wall double shot basket and double shot setting light on machine.
-Flush grouphead before starting to measure so its warmed up.
-Am using Poland spring water
-The current mix of variables I have pulls a shot in 25 seconds (counting preinfusion/button press until auto-stop). However, way too much liquid ends up coming out. So timing feels somewhat right (maybe could run a little longer closer to 30), but definitely too much volume output). After tarring my espresso glass, I see about 56g or so of liquid, in theory, this should be closer to ~36g correct?
-Am usually hitting between a stable 10 and 2 on the pressure gauge, depending on grind size
-Here is the scenario from start to finish of a typical pull (sorry if don't use the perfect terminology - still a bit new to this). This occurs after machine and portafilter are warmed up.-
1. Open the bag of beans and weigh 18g whole beans into the tarred hopper on my scale.
2. Grind beans on a setting until machine is empty. 1/2 way through the grind I slightly push my finger on the mound of beans to prevent excess overflow. I currently am on the 15 espresso setting.
3. Even tamp until my tamper clicks, rotate slightly.
4. Put glass on scale, set on machine, zero out.
5. Set timer and hit double shot button at same time. (Should I be counting shots at start of auto-preinfusion or when first drip?!?)
Can anybody offer any guidance? It feels like as mentioned earlier, too much water is coming out. I dialed grind size settings from 20 to 5, until I was able to get 25-30s pull, but am not able to solve why so much liquid comes out in that time frame - I am guessing that may have something to do with the quality of the sour/bitter result.
Any suggestions on where to go next? -Ali
-My Equipment is as follows:-
-Breville Barista Express
-Breville Smart Grinder Pro (was told the grinder is not fine grained and consistent enough in the barista express)
-Hario Scale
-Luxhaus Calibrated 53mm Tamp for Consistency in Pressure (I know this is entry level but I needed to practice consistency). Is it possible the calibrated tamp on this takes too much pressure? At least its consistent, which I thought was more important than pressure level itself.
-Starbucks Espresso Roast Whole Bean from the Store (I know this is considered trash, but I am a fan of the intense smoky tones, and have not been able to find a similar profile on a fresher roast - I never had a problem with these in the past)
-Some things I have done in my process learned from this board already or details that may be of use otherwise:-
-Increase Temp of machine to +4*F since it likes to chill (I tried the stock setting and +4*F - but didn't seem to make much a difference)
-Let warm up for minimum of 15 minutes.
-I am using the single wall double shot basket and double shot setting light on machine.
-Flush grouphead before starting to measure so its warmed up.
-Am using Poland spring water
-The current mix of variables I have pulls a shot in 25 seconds (counting preinfusion/button press until auto-stop). However, way too much liquid ends up coming out. So timing feels somewhat right (maybe could run a little longer closer to 30), but definitely too much volume output). After tarring my espresso glass, I see about 56g or so of liquid, in theory, this should be closer to ~36g correct?
-Am usually hitting between a stable 10 and 2 on the pressure gauge, depending on grind size
-Here is the scenario from start to finish of a typical pull (sorry if don't use the perfect terminology - still a bit new to this). This occurs after machine and portafilter are warmed up.-
1. Open the bag of beans and weigh 18g whole beans into the tarred hopper on my scale.
2. Grind beans on a setting until machine is empty. 1/2 way through the grind I slightly push my finger on the mound of beans to prevent excess overflow. I currently am on the 15 espresso setting.
3. Even tamp until my tamper clicks, rotate slightly.
4. Put glass on scale, set on machine, zero out.
5. Set timer and hit double shot button at same time. (Should I be counting shots at start of auto-preinfusion or when first drip?!?)
Can anybody offer any guidance? It feels like as mentioned earlier, too much water is coming out. I dialed grind size settings from 20 to 5, until I was able to get 25-30s pull, but am not able to solve why so much liquid comes out in that time frame - I am guessing that may have something to do with the quality of the sour/bitter result.
Any suggestions on where to go next? -Ali
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Nunas
- Supporter ♡
- Posts: 3689
- Joined: 9 years ago
In a perfect world, bitter and sour are at opposite ends of the espresso extraction continuum. Generally, if the espresso is sour grind finer. Also, if you're extracting too much liquid in the ~25 seconds pull grind finer. On the other hand, if your espresso is too bitter, grind coarser. If in grinding coarser your extraction goes up unacceptably, then increase the dose, and vice-versa for grinding finer.
Now, you describe bitter + sour. Above I said a perfect world. But this isn't a perfect world. If the grind is consistently the very same, then changing the grind will change between bitter and sour. But, if the grinder produces grinds of a different texture, in addition to the desired coarseness, it is possible to have espresso that's both bitter (from any too fine grinds) and sour (from any too coarse grinds).
But even this is an oversimplification, as only grinds that are absolutely identical can produce a one-dimensional taste, even though it might be neither sour nor bitter. This is why some argue that a range of grinds is necessary for the complex taste of espresso. In other words, at a given grinder setting, a good will produce grinds of that particular setting, and some somewhat above and some somewhat below (i.e., a bell curve distribution if you will). A really good grinder will produce a tight bell curve, whereas a cheaper one will likely produce a wide bell curve, thus imparting not just a complex taste, but also undesired tastes.
If you can, borrow a really good grinder and see what happens.
Now, you describe bitter + sour. Above I said a perfect world. But this isn't a perfect world. If the grind is consistently the very same, then changing the grind will change between bitter and sour. But, if the grinder produces grinds of a different texture, in addition to the desired coarseness, it is possible to have espresso that's both bitter (from any too fine grinds) and sour (from any too coarse grinds).
But even this is an oversimplification, as only grinds that are absolutely identical can produce a one-dimensional taste, even though it might be neither sour nor bitter. This is why some argue that a range of grinds is necessary for the complex taste of espresso. In other words, at a given grinder setting, a good will produce grinds of that particular setting, and some somewhat above and some somewhat below (i.e., a bell curve distribution if you will). A really good grinder will produce a tight bell curve, whereas a cheaper one will likely produce a wide bell curve, thus imparting not just a complex taste, but also undesired tastes.
If you can, borrow a really good grinder and see what happens.
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tracer bullet
- Posts: 147
- Joined: 5 years ago
Do you feel like the liquid flow is somewhat consistent, or does it start slow and gush at the end? You might also try just cutting the shot when you see it begin to emerge more rapidly, and see how long that takes and what volume you get.
Can you explain more about seeing between 10 and 2 on the gauge? Is that within a shot, or across different shots at different grinder settings?
I'm just thinking this info could be good for helping troubleshoot.
Can you explain more about seeing between 10 and 2 on the gauge? Is that within a shot, or across different shots at different grinder settings?
I'm just thinking this info could be good for helping troubleshoot.
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sirocco (original poster)
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 5 years ago
The shots seem very consistent and stable, it seems the grinder is at least doing its job and is create a consistent bed of tamped grinds. Most of the grind sizes (except extreme ends of the spectrum) have fallen between 10 and 2.
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hercdeisel
- Posts: 160
- Joined: 5 years ago
Hi Ali,
I've worked with the setup you've described (Starbucks beans, Barista Express, SGP) quite a bit when visiting family. I've noticed a few things:
First, with Starbucks beans the grind has to be very fine on the SGP. Especially the italian roast or older beans. Like, much finer than just about anything else I've ground.
Second, I've found that about 15-16g is a good range to shoot for rather than 18. However, even that amount of grounds that pile will be well above the height of the basket before tamping. So, I give the portafilter a decent tap on the counter (tamp mat or dish towel) before tamping.
Third, I like to use the manual control parameter. I hold down the single cup button to start preinfusion. I've noticed this can actually be a bit slow on the machine i've been using. Once I get a drip (10 seconds or so), I let the button go for the machine to get to full pressure. I try to get about 30-35g out by about 20-25 seconds after I let the button go.
Finally, before pulling any shots I let the machine warm up about 10 minutes and then run about 10 seconds of water through the portafilter.
Overall I've had that process get some quite tasty results. To me, though, the real limitation you're working with is the grinder. When I've brought my own hand grinder (Lido-E) on these visits, I've had much more consistent results with the Starbucks beans than with the SGP.
I've worked with the setup you've described (Starbucks beans, Barista Express, SGP) quite a bit when visiting family. I've noticed a few things:
First, with Starbucks beans the grind has to be very fine on the SGP. Especially the italian roast or older beans. Like, much finer than just about anything else I've ground.
Second, I've found that about 15-16g is a good range to shoot for rather than 18. However, even that amount of grounds that pile will be well above the height of the basket before tamping. So, I give the portafilter a decent tap on the counter (tamp mat or dish towel) before tamping.
Third, I like to use the manual control parameter. I hold down the single cup button to start preinfusion. I've noticed this can actually be a bit slow on the machine i've been using. Once I get a drip (10 seconds or so), I let the button go for the machine to get to full pressure. I try to get about 30-35g out by about 20-25 seconds after I let the button go.
Finally, before pulling any shots I let the machine warm up about 10 minutes and then run about 10 seconds of water through the portafilter.
Overall I've had that process get some quite tasty results. To me, though, the real limitation you're working with is the grinder. When I've brought my own hand grinder (Lido-E) on these visits, I've had much more consistent results with the Starbucks beans than with the SGP.
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sirocco (original poster)
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 5 years ago
Thank you all so much for the feedback, it means so much to me. I will try all this tonight when I get home and report back. This whole espresso learning journey is amazing to be a part of and am finally happy to have some halfway decent equipment. I just ordered some Redbird Espresso so I can't wait to try that out as well!
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Stanford55
- Supporter ♡
- Posts: 137
- Joined: 5 years ago
Don't be afraid to play with the manual controls and cut the flow when it starts to blonde and for manipulating the preinfusion (especially for lighter roasts). It took me a full year with the machine to get to this point. Personally I think it's fun to monitor the output weight and time, but what you're really looking for is the taste and the color/consistency of the flow (too thin and dark you probably need to grind coarser; the converse is also true).
I've found the stock grinder to be more than capable; however, it can be wildly inconsistent in the dosage (.5-1g variation on any given day). I use a scale to control for this and the shots have been great. I think it's a fantastic machine.
I've found the stock grinder to be more than capable; however, it can be wildly inconsistent in the dosage (.5-1g variation on any given day). I use a scale to control for this and the shots have been great. I think it's a fantastic machine.
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tracer bullet
- Posts: 147
- Joined: 5 years ago
Stability is good, if you are gushing at the end of a shot that is channeling and will of course change things.sirocco wrote:Most of the grind sizes (except extreme ends of the spectrum) have fallen between 10 and 2.
I still don't quite get 10 and 2. Are these grinder settings? I looked up your machine and it has a gauge, but looks like it doesn't actually have #'s on it.
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ojt
- Posts: 846
- Joined: 6 years ago
This was already said above but I too think it's a question of grinder and probably the beans. I just confirmed this for myself as I upgraded my grinder to Kinu M47 (from a slightly modded Skerton); before the upgrade I just could not pull a shot from stale beans / dark roast (never bought fresh dark roast..), now I can. I think it's simply a question of consistency and with those beans you'll need a consistently fine grind (as mentioned already). For some reason lighter roasts were easier..
I would try fresh beans, maybe something like a medium-dark roast, but it seems you know what you want.
I would try fresh beans, maybe something like a medium-dark roast, but it seems you know what you want.
Osku
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sirocco (original poster)
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 5 years ago
I meant 10 to 2 o'clock if you thought of the pressure circle as a clocktracer bullet wrote:Stability is good, if you are gushing at the end of a shot that is channeling and will of course change things.
I still don't quite get 10 and 2. Are these grinder settings? I looked up your machine and it has a gauge, but looks like it doesn't actually have #'s on it.
