First Impressions of Decent Espresso DE1+PRO - Page 7

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rimblas
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Postby rimblas » Mar 11, 2019, 11:36 pm

Just for fun, I "borrowed" this profile image from someone using it for pour over. You can see many steps with pauses. And because is pour over, there's no pressure build up.
Image

And here's another crazy one with pressure (but it had the comment "it was not good" :lol: )
Image

Iowa_Boy

Postby Iowa_Boy » Mar 11, 2019, 11:37 pm

RapidCoffee wrote:You are describing a flow profile. That's exactly how it works. Pressure changes to maintain a desired flow rate.

On the DE1, preinfusion can be programmed to end by time or pressure. Jorge's profile preinfuses until puck pressure hits 8 bar, or 60s elapses. The long time period (60s) forces preinfusion to end with pressure rather than time, ensuring that the puck is fully saturated.


Understand - that makes sense now.

rimblas wrote:Let me address the last question first. Preinfusion in this instance is purely the name of the firsts step. The trigger to move to the next step is either a time limit (60 s in this particular case) or a certain pressure (8 bar here), both can be adjusted with the slider. Currently the DE cannot detect the first drops.

For a flow mode shot, absolutely, that's what Flow Profiles do. The one I shared was a Pressure Profile (and you can see it on the selected tab). With Flow Profiles the pre-infusion step is the same, but the second step ("rise and hold" if you will) can specify the constant flow you want. The DE will then vary the pressure as needed. These profiles are trickier to dial in. For example, it's not unusual to see pressure rocket to 12 bar trying to reach a flow.

Here's one such example. The dotted blue line represents the goal (about 0.8 ml/s). The pressure was capped at 12bar by the software logic. Eventually, around 47s the flow goal was reached and the pressure declined as needed to maintain.

There's a 3rd kind of profile in the DE, the Advanced. With these you can name up to 20 steps (or so, going by memory) each step can be pressure, flow, or simply a pause. Here you can really go nuts with creativity and imagination. :D
<img>


Thanks for showing a flow profile. If I am interpreting this graph correctly, would you coarsen the grind a bit on the theoretical next shot? Seems like that would even the extraction out a bit as the machine would need less than max pressure to hit the desired flow target.

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rimblas
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Postby rimblas » Mar 12, 2019, 12:04 am

Iowa_Boy wrote:Thanks for showing a flow profile. If I am interpreting this graph correctly, would you coarsen the grind a bit on the theoretical next shot? Seems like that would even the extraction out a bit as the machine would need less than max pressure to hit the desired flow target.

Yes, exactly!

And, of course, taste and compare. Maybe the higher pressure tastes better. We do run into happy accidents. :shock: :lol:

JayBeck

Postby JayBeck » Mar 12, 2019, 12:08 am

elbertfunkleberg wrote:Or rather, you think you can do anything. You have to have a lot of faith that everything that is being represented on the screen is actually happening in the machine. Personally I'm of the opinion that there are wide margins of error. If this were not the case I doubt there would be so many complaints about the quality of the coffee produced.


Those are bold opinions. Care to elaborate on the basis of your conclusion?

Here are some facts to be mindful of:

1) Every machine is pressure and temperature calibrated with a SCACE prior to being shipped.
2) Temperature and Pressure probes don't really drift; however, Decent is working on a SCACE competitor so that users can confirm calibration of sensors on a regular basis.
3) Flow has gotten very accurate with a firmware update last fall. I have run many tests. If I set my machine to 4ml/s flow and run my machine for 10 seconds I get 40 ml/s with +/-2 every time. That is insanely accurate. More accurate than the flow meter on pretty much any machine you could name. This can also be calibrated if a user tests this and theirs somehow is off.

I have a very, very high confidence that the numbers we are seeing are as accurate as any machine can produce and repeat. Just because users are having difficulty does not mean the machine is inaccurate. It means one of two things. 1) The machine could be malfunctioning. The DE team will help diagnose and if it is a faulty machine, you have the best customer service I've ever seen. 2) The user is not creating a profile suited for the bean they are using (including brew ratio, grind size, etc). #2 is the whole purpose of this thread. Pressure and flow profiling is not some magic formula for better espresso every time. This is relatively new territory and it's all trial and error. And a whole lot of fun figuring it all out.

Iowa_Boy

Postby Iowa_Boy » Mar 12, 2019, 11:53 am

Really impressive how capable this machine is. Hope to get the 1.3 as soon as it's out.
One question as I was thinking through the Slayer like preinfusion.
I found a post on Slayer website entitled "How fine can you grind?" which implied the Slayer pre-infusion rate is around 1-2 g/sec.
It seems like the Slayer DE profiles I have seen are using closer to 3 g/sec. Is this because there is more headspace in the Decent machine so more water needs to be infused in a similar amount of time to get to the same end pressure?
Maybe not a meaningful difference anyway in time or taste, but just curious.

pcrussell50

Postby pcrussell50 » Mar 12, 2019, 12:18 pm

When a Slayer is in the lower of it's two available "speeds", the flow passes through it's needle valve. With the needle valve, you can set whatever low flow you want before your start your shot. If after you start your shot, you find that the flow is not to your liking, you can abort the shot or sink it (I would still at least taste it before tossing it). Then before your next pull, you can change your needle setting to something more or less, and then see how you like that one.

Once you have iterated it where you like it, keep it that way until you try a different bean an might want something else.

I can imagine there is an iterative nature to building a DE program that works for you, for a particular bean, and once it's dialed, it will repeat it faithfully.

-Peter
LMWDP #553

JonF

Postby JonF » Mar 12, 2019, 1:23 pm

rimblas wrote:Here's one such example. The dotted blue line represents the goal (about 0.8 ml/s). The pressure was capped at 12bar by the software logic. Eventually, around 47s the flow goal was reached and the pressure declined as needed to maintain.

<image>


I recently had a shot using a similar flow profile, and also peaked at 12bar. This was perhaps my best to date! Just interested what your dosing was. I liked the shot so much I am trying to replicate it, but either need to grind finer or up my dose to get back to 12 bar.

apexespresso

Postby apexespresso » Mar 12, 2019, 9:25 pm

This is so cool!

JayBeck

Postby JayBeck » Mar 12, 2019, 9:48 pm

Iowa_Boy wrote:Really impressive how capable this machine is. Hope to get the 1.3 as soon as it's out.
One question as I was thinking through the Slayer like preinfusion.
I found a post on Slayer website entitled "How fine can you grind?" which implied the Slayer pre-infusion rate is around 1-2 g/sec.
It seems like the Slayer DE profiles I have seen are using closer to 3 g/sec. Is this because there is more headspace in the Decent machine so more water needs to be infused in a similar amount of time to get to the same end pressure?
Maybe not a meaningful difference anyway in time or taste, but just curious.


Yes.

More elaborate reply: Slayer comes from the factory at 2ml/s I believe, pushed through a needle valve with 9 bar pump pressure behind it. What this means is that the machine can continue to push that low flow until the machine hits 9 bar. This is different from line pressure based preinfusion where pressure quits rising when like pressure is reached.

DE1 does have more headspace and that may be why the standard Slayer shot is set to 3ml/s. Really, The DE1 can do about anything flow wise. I use a Slayer profile I made that uses a 1.4ml/s flow since that is the flow a lot of users seem to adjust their Slayer to. I flow 1.4 ml/s flow to 6 bar of pressure, which takes 30-45 seconds depending on dose and coffee. 3 ml/s will half that time so really it depends on how long you want the preinfusion to last. Then you rise to 9 bar and hold or start a pressure decline.

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rimblas
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Postby rimblas » Mar 12, 2019, 11:08 pm

JonF wrote:I recently had a shot using a similar flow profile, and also peaked at 12bar. This was perhaps my best to date! Just interested what your dosing was. I liked the shot so much I am trying to replicate it, but either need to grind finer or up my dose to get back to 12 bar.

Pretty sure it was 16g in a 15g VST ridgeless basket. And yes, either or both actions should do it. Sometimes .5g is all it takes. It can be finicky to dial those flow profiles.