First Impressions of Decent Espresso DE1+PRO - Page 12

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arcus

Postby arcus » May 25, 2019, 3:06 pm

JayBeck wrote:Exactly. But in espresso, once you can control temp, flow, and pressure, what else is there? Incremental upgrades? Perhaps. But nothing that is going to make a V1.0 user say, "dang, my machine can't pull off that type of shot!"

For the record, the machine is designed in such a way that if a better vibration pump were to become available, it's a simple hardware upgrade. This has already happened with the flow meter in V1.1, which John gave to all V1.0 users free of charge.


I'd be really surprised if there weren't upgrades over the next few years that motivated V1.0 users to upgrade. History has shown us that once users adopt technology they are compelled to upgrade faster than they normally would. I'm not saying that DE1 users are going to turn into iSheep but I'm expecting the machines will continue to take advantage of new hardware and evolve more rapidly than any other espresso machine manufacturer has previously.

If that does happen, it just means that Decent is really successful which means they will be able to continue to innovate and still be able to support their existing user community and that is good for everyone.

pcrussell50

Postby pcrussell50 » May 25, 2019, 3:14 pm

JayBeck wrote:What is not so easily done are automatic profiles. That requires access to firmware and some way to automatically control the flow. The logical solution here then is to not do a needle valve and instead do a rotary pump.


And don't forget the sensor and actuator suite that the firmware reads from and reacts with. That, in the DE machines is about as future proof as you can get right now unless somehow, you can cram in more sensors and more actuators. But what will that achieve? Big results or diminishing returns?

Small point... I'm sure that instead of rotary pump, you meant "gear pump". Those are the ones that can provide precise and responsive flow control. ;)

-Peter
LMWDP #553

interseismic

Postby interseismic » May 25, 2019, 5:53 pm

JayBeck wrote:Exactly. But in espresso, once you can control temp, flow, and pressure, what else is there? Incremental upgrades? Perhaps. But nothing that is going to make a V1.0 user say, "dang, my machine can't pull off that type of shot!"

For the record, the machine is designed in such a way that if a better vibration pump were to become available, it's a simple hardware upgrade. This has already happened with the flow meter in V1.1, which John gave to all V1.0 users free of charge.


I think that it's pretty short-sighted to assume that there will be no major improvements to espresso technology in the future. If anything I would argue we should expect major improvements to future espresso machines because of the amount of information that is available now. New information and understanding tends to result in rapid progress rather than incremental.

On top of that, can you name a single software-based device that you've had over 10 years that you would re-purchase brand new today, without any changes, to keep for another 10 years? I can't. We all love tech that is software-based, but I would argue that these devices tend to have even shorter life cycles than purely mechanical or electronic devices.

The whole point of my argument is that people should just enjoy their purchases rather than worry about whether it is going to be superseded by something better. At some point, it will.

JayBeck

Postby JayBeck » May 26, 2019, 12:02 am

pcrussell50 wrote:And don't forget the sensor and actuator suite that the firmware reads from and reacts with. That, in the DE machines is about as future proof as you can get right now unless somehow, you can cram in more sensors and more actuators. But what will that achieve? Big results or diminishing returns?

Small point... I'm sure that instead of rotary pump, you meant "gear pump". Those are the ones that can provide precise and responsive flow control. ;)

-Peter


Correct and typo fixed. Thanks!

JayBeck

Postby JayBeck » May 26, 2019, 12:21 am

interseismic wrote:I think that it's pretty short-sighted to assume that there will be no major improvements to espresso technology in the future. If anything I would argue we should expect major improvements to future espresso machines because of the amount of information that is available now. New information and understanding tends to result in rapid progress rather than incremental.

On top of that, can you name a single software-based device that you've had over 10 years that you would re-purchase brand new today, without any changes, to keep for another 10 years? I can't. We all love tech that is software-based, but I would argue that these devices tend to have even shorter life cycles than purely mechanical or electronic devices.

The whole point of my argument is that people should just enjoy their purchases rather than worry about whether it is going to be superseded by something better. At some point, it will.


Over the last 10 years or so it seems, the trend in espresso has been improved temperature control and pressure / flow control. In other words, taking the same 3 variables an espresso machine does (send stable hot water to a coffee cake with flow and pressure at the proper parameters) and give more precise control over them. There's really not some new way of extracting. It's been about having more control. The Decent does all that in V1.0 form; in fact, better than others that cost quite a bit more.

It seems to me that because it's clear pressure / flow profiling is here to stay on pump machines, the next 10 years are going to be about how to best profile coffees. In other words, while other machines are trying to update to give the control the DE1 had in 2018, most folks will start better understanding the nuance of profiling and sharing detailed recipes.

I would expect more bling in future models but nothing game changing (at least on 110V machines where everything is pretty much maxed out in terms of performance).

While the DE1 is a software and firmware driven machine, it's not like it's a processor intensive set up like a lot of technology is. So to your point, because espresso itself hasnt changed in the last 100 years (outside of major control and consistency improvements) there is no reason to believe it will going forward. It is what it is. I believe it was James Hoffman who recently said the next big leap in espresso will be on the roasting side of things.

Case in point: there is a reason that a vintage lever in the hands of a skilled user can pull shots as good as the DE1, Slayer, etc even though it's using 100+ year old technology. The problem is being a "skilled user" is not easy. This is where technology can help even beginners accelerate training and make unbelievable coffee.
★ Helpful

fritzf

Postby fritzf » Jun 03, 2019, 7:52 pm

Can someone comment on the grinder requirements of the DE1. I have a Baratza Vario that was rebuilt with the latest components a year ago. I just pulled the trigger on a DE1 but now I am worried that I will need a new grinder as well - can I get to know the machine using my existing Vario?

Thanks

GAC

Postby GAC » replying to fritzf » Jun 03, 2019, 8:02 pm

I have exactly that setup with a Vario [ceramic burr set]. My DE1+ is V1.0 and I've had it for just over a year. I find dialling in the Vario an exercise in frustration compared to my Sette 270Wi, but once dialled in, it is a very good grinder for the job [better than Sette]. In my experience you won't need a new grinder, but as you would already know, Vario's don't like changing beans/grinds very much.

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rimblas
Supporter ♡

Postby rimblas » replying to GAC » Jun 03, 2019, 10:23 pm

Exactly my experience with the Vario and my DE. Yes, I could dial it in, but it was incredibly frustrating when switching beans which is exactly what I wanted to do when I got the DE. I wanted to try all sorts of profile adjustments and beans. So it had to go.

GAC

Postby GAC » Jun 03, 2019, 11:02 pm

rimblas wrote: So it hard to go.


So what did you get to replace the Vario with? I haven't seen anything short of a Monolith that nobody complains about for one issue or another - and it is wildly beyond my meagre budget! :)

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rimblas
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Postby rimblas » replying to GAC » Jun 04, 2019, 12:07 am

At first, temporarily, with a Kinu M47. Fabulous, but long term handgrinding was not going to work. :lol:
I still have the Kinu. But I got a Helor Stance Motor and I'm very happy with the precision and consistency.

From what other members report, between a Niche Zero or Sette, and a Monolith or HSM (or other expensive grinder) the laws of diminishing returns apply.