JonF wrote:I have also never had steaming that this this predictable and consistent. You do not have a tank changing pressure as you steam, so it just keeps coming. And you can even tweak the steam temp if desired. Very dry steam too.

The steaming was something I was concerned about from my initial reading.

Was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the steamed milk. Sure it takes a bit longer, but to your point, it is excellent and consistent.

SteveH wrote:Ex-GS3+Slayer and current very happy Decent owner here too!

I'm very interested to hear from the "Slayer to DE1" crowd. What is your opinion of the "mouthfeel" the DE1 produces? I don't remember where I read about it, it might even be an earlier post in this thread, but a few people were talking about this being the only area where the DE1 falls slightly short. My problem is after years of chasing "Slayer-like" shots with cheaper machines, I had finally come to terms with the fact that the only way to truly get that level of syrupy, viscous magic was to pony up for a Slayer. I have no doubt the DE1 produces amazing tasting shots that can be fined tuned to perfection, but I'm worried I'll be disappointed if it falls short in the mouthfeel department. Did you all keep your Slayers? Do you go back and forth between machines or are they collecting dust now? Thanks.

Don't know about a Slayer but I fired up my '64 Faema E61 two banger a couple of months ago after a prolonged restoration and the lovely syrupy gloopiness is unrivalled.

Zim218 wrote:I'm very interested to hear from the "Slayer to DE1" crowd. What is your opinion of the "mouthfeel" the DE1 produces? I don't remember where I read about it, it might even be an earlier post in this thread, but a few people were talking about this being the only area where the DE1 falls slightly short. My problem is after years of chasing "Slayer-like" shots with cheaper machines, I had finally come to terms with the fact that the only way to truly get that level of syrupy, viscous magic was to pony up for a Slayer. I have no doubt the DE1 produces amazing tasting shots that can be fined tuned to perfection, but I'm worried I'll be disappointed if it falls short in the mouthfeel department. Did you all keep your Slayers? Do you go back and forth between machines or are they collecting dust now? Thanks.

I have asked this question to others who have had GS3 or Slayers and they tend to agree that mouthfeel is similar.

Folks noticing the most difference come from rotary pump E61s and Vivaldis. Two things in these seem to produce that thick mouthfeel: 1) limited dwell time due to high flow of around 12 ml/s unrestricted; 2) protruding shower screen that creates space between dispersion block and shower screen.

GS3 and Slayers have low flow orfices that limit flow to around 8ml/s, just like the DE1. Each have less headspace and more protrusion of the shower screen with space between screen and dispersion. This seems to give it a slight enough that with a blind taste test it might be hard to see. Likewise, at least one LMLM user with a 0.6mm gicleur (which produces around 8ml/s flow, down from stock 12ml/s flow) has noted that mouthfeel is very similar. Thus he ditched his LMLM.

Stock LMLM, stock Vivaldi, and rotary E61s seem to produce some of the best mouthfeel. Be cautious though, because as clarity in a shot increases (via flow profiling) mouthfeel will decrease.

Some good news on the DE1 front: users noting most of the lack of mouthfeel came from high flow machines I listed to a v1.0 DE1. In v1.1 and forward, headspace was reduced to bring it in line with Slayer and other machines. Second, users have discovered the Simonelli IMS shower screen fits the DE1 and further reduces headspace and creates space between the dispersion block. These users (on v1.1 machines) notice improved mouthfeel, less channeling and pucks that knock out in one piece. They are on to something. My Simonelli screen arrives today for testing.

Second: I believe John is still planning to release 10-12 ml/s flow for the DE1 in a future software update. The sole purpose is this end of the equation: reduced dwell time.

To conclude: if you only drink comfort blends and chase thick shots, the DE1 wasnt made for you. There are tons of rotary E61s, the Vivaldi, or the LMLM designed for classic espresso.

If you want a future proof machine that can profile as good, if not better, than any machine in the world and can also make decently (lol) thick shots with further improvement via firmware on the horizon, then get a DE1.

JayBeck wrote: If you want a future proof machine that...

This kind of language is wildly speculative. If anything, the only truth is that nothing is future proof. I'm sure there is an entire graveyard somewhere filled with devices that people thought would stick around forever.

In the same post, you mentioned how a newer version of the machine has "improved" hardware, which already undercuts your claim. Tomorrow a new company could release something that blows these machines away. Or Decent Espresso could release a whole new machine that blows away their current lineup. It's more productive if people stop speculating about what the future holds.

interseismic wrote:This kind of language is wildly speculative. If anything, the only truth is that nothing is future proof. I'm sure there is an entire graveyard somewhere filled with devices that people thought would stick around forever.

In the same post, you mentioned how a newer version of the machine has "improved" hardware, which already undercuts your claim. Tomorrow a new company could release something that blows these machines away. Or Decent Espresso could release a whole new machine that blows away their current lineup. It's more productive if people stop speculating about what the future holds.

How is it more productive not to speculate? You are not wrong about your own speculations. They could well happen. But if you can speculate, so can Jayson. Besides, I'm not sure what's wrong with speculating about what the future holds. It reminds me of the old quote, "When should we speculate? When all the facts are known?" Speculating is distinct from dictating or preaching what the future will hold. Jayson did lay out a convincing case based on current knowledge that if someone were to be looking for an espresso machine for the long haul, DE might be the way to go.

Disclaimer, I have no dog in this fight. I don't have a DE. And with beginning to end, on the fly flow control, AND 18+ml/s flow rates if I want, I'm not shopping for a new machine. If someone's speculation turns out to play out, will re evaluate then.

-Peter

interseismic wrote:This kind of language is wildly speculative. If anything, the only truth is that nothing is future proof. I'm sure there is an entire graveyard somewhere filled with devices that people thought would stick around forever.

In the same post, you mentioned how a newer version of the machine has "improved" hardware, which already undercuts your claim. Tomorrow a new company could release something that blows these machines away. Or Decent Espresso could release a whole new machine that blows away their current lineup. It's more productive if people stop speculating about what the future holds.

Disagree based on the following facts:

Grouphead controller was a requirement for UL compliance, which for a home barista is meaningless. Since it needed to be done, it created an opportunity to add manual control rather than as a separate addon. It will not make espresso any better or worse, and is totally upgradable for current owners. A V1.3 GHC has all the same control over flow and pressure as all DE1 machines. I suspect manual control will have very low usage rates and when used will only be during dialing in of a new bean. Automatic control is superior because it is repeatable and allows the barista to better watch the shot develop since you don't have to watch gauges. You can analyze all the data you want after the shot.

Firmware and software upgrades always improve devices. I have 10 year old PCs that function just as well as a brand new PC even if asthetics are different. All the hardware needed to create end game espresso is already there. As software and firmware improves, it will roll out to all devices. Decent Espresso is not Apple where planned obsolescence in software degredes performance overtime, requiring you to get a new machine. No, this is a machine built to last, with all parts available and easy transportation for sending back to Decent for any more complicated repairs over time.

This is software driven espresso. In 9 months of ownership my DE1 has already received amazing upgrades in performance via new firmware and software. John has a long list of new additions already planned over the next year that will continue to improve the experience (Rao inspired V60 pourover mode, 12ml/s max flow, sharable profiles, automatic Americano, steam temp calculator, etc).

I firmly stand by my claim based upon these facts.

Technology continues to evolve and older devices eventually can no longer be upgraded. I have plenty of examples of this in my own house.

Having said that, John has done a commendable job of making this generation of machines as future proof as he can and I'm sure users will be happy for many years but I'm sure there will be newer machines with more desirable features that the current machines can't support in the coming years. If not, John's business model will fail.

pcrussell50 wrote:How is it more productive not to speculate? You are not wrong about your own speculations. They could well happen. But if you can speculate, so can Jayson. Besides, I'm not sure what's wrong with speculating about what the future holds. It reminds me of the old quote, "When should we speculate? When all the facts are known?" Speculating is distinct from dictating or preaching what the future will hold. Jayson did lay out a convincing case based on current knowledge that if someone were to be looking for an espresso machine for the long haul, DE might be the way to go.

Disclaimer, I have no dog in this fight. I don't have a DE. And with beginning to end, on the fly flow control, AND 18+ml/s flow rates if I want, I'm not shopping for a new machine. If someone's speculation turns out to play out, will re evaluate then.

-Peter

Well said, Peter. In theory, any prosumer grade machine should be capable of being retrofitted and made into a profiler. It may not be elegant but you can make variable water control happen. Peter brilliantly did this with his BDB (even adding a rotary pump!), as well as JakeG with his needle valve in the HX of his Rancilio and now GS3AV.

What is not so easily done are automatic profiles. That requires access to firmware and some way to automatically control the flow. The logical solution here then is to not do a needle valve and instead do a gear pump.

The brilliant DE1 grouphead and controller basically turns the vibration pump into a gear pump by managing the pulses for complete flow and pressure control. All of this, tied in with the data from the the group, gives repeatable control. This is why I say it's future proof. No machine out now has this type of control so everyone else is playing catch up.

Also - "future proof" is a term used to generally let a buyer know that for the next 10-20 years they should be good. For example, people will recommend you pay up on a nice laptop to get the i7 model, 16g RAM, and 512SD vs the lower speced models to be "future proof" to the next several generations of software. I've never seen it used as an indefinite term.

My point in application to the DE1 is that because the DE1 has all the components TODAY to to end to end flow and pressure profiling with full repeatability and data analysis, you will see copy cat machines coming (i.e. other are playing catch up). There is no rational reason in buying a DE1 today that there is some coffee you won't be able to pull to perfection. All the total control needed for espresso extraction was available on V1.0.

arcus wrote:Technology continues to evolve and older devices eventually can no longer be upgraded. I have plenty of examples of this in my own house.

Having said that, John has done a commendable job of making this generation of machines as future proof as he can and I'm sure users will be happy for many years but I'm sure there will be newer machines with more desirable features that the current machines can't support in the coming years. If not, John's business model will fail.

Exactly. But in espresso, once you can control temp, flow, and pressure, what else is there? Incremental upgrades? Perhaps. But nothing that is going to make a V1.0 user say, "dang, my machine can't pull off that type of shot!"

For the record, the machine is designed in such a way that if a better vibration pump were to become available, it's a simple hardware upgrade. This has already happened with the flow meter in V1.1, which John gave to all V1.0 users free of charge.