False claims of saturated group heads (buyers beware). - Page 3

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Tonefish (original poster)
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#21: Post by Tonefish (original poster) »

Javier wrote: Unless an Arrarex Caravel would be considered a saturated group.
Looks mighty close, but who knows without a definition. :D
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HB
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#22: Post by HB »

Let me fix that marketing message for you: :lol:
Tonefish wrote:If a XYZ weren't a good thing for ABC, then there wouldn't be so many claiming to have one.
Temperature stability was the end-all be-all 10 years ago; nowadays it gets less attention because designers have figured out more than one way to get there.
Dan Kehn

Tonefish (original poster)
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#23: Post by Tonefish (original poster) »

HB wrote:Let me fix that marketing message for you: :lol:


Temperature stability was the end-all be-all 10 years ago; nowadays it gets less attention because designers have figured out more than one way to get there.
I may well be stuck in the past. There's just something special about doing something well with fewer (or no) moving parts and little to go wrong. I must confess that I still roll down my car windows with a crank and prefer it that way. :)

I do believe though, that temperature stability is still among the top most important features of the best espresso machines.
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pcrussell50
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#24: Post by pcrussell50 »

HB wrote: Temperature stability was the end-all be-all 10 years ago; nowadays it gets less attention because designers have figured out more than one way to get there.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner ^^^

For example, the BDB was designed specifically with a Scace device, to kill it in a Scace test back during that era (launched Fall 2011). Not some other industrial tool, but an actual Scace device. It's literally what they used to tune their multiple PID stages. And I'd be very surprised if DE didn't also.

-Peter
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chimopaul
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#25: Post by chimopaul »

baldheadracing wrote: The Pro 300's group is called a "ring brew group" by Profitec. If the group was saturated, then I'm sure Profitec and the other manufacturers that use the 'same' group would be saying so.
Since there seems to be so much confusion and perhaps a lack of standards governing body for these definitions, perhaps it started simply as a marketing term. Other companies may prefer to differentiate their products by using their own terms.

The 300 heats up pretty fast and I think I prefer a large chunk of metal rather than a thin one between the boiler and the screen for thermal stability reasons as the heating element cycles on and off.

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another_jim
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#26: Post by another_jim »

Tonefish wrote:Too bad it doesn't cover "saturated groups." :P :D
Maybe JIm is implying that whoever started the term chose the wrong term. :lol:
I see saturated groups as a subtype of directly connected groups. I know this sounds kind of persnickety; but it is about how to build a machine. Whether it's saturated (LM), or directly connected via a monster HX (Cimbali and La Spaz HX) or via a brass plate (La Spaz DB and Reneka DB) or a combo brew boiler and group (LMLM, Dalla Corte DBs, and almost all single boiler machines) or old school levers that are directly bolted to the boiler, this style of machine requires that the boiler and group be installed as a unit. If you have a thermosyphon or actively heated group, you can stick the group in one place and the boiler in another. This gives you more flexibility when designing the machine.
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Bluecold
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#27: Post by Bluecold »

Tonefish wrote:I debated starting a thread on defining what is a true saturated group but expected that to be even worse. I could find no view of the Faema and I wasn't considering open boilers although some could likely meet whatever the definition is. :D
;)
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sluflyer06
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#28: Post by sluflyer06 »

Tonefish wrote:Living with an E61 and interested in saturated group head concepts, I've been digging into group head designs and vendor websites (sales galore this week), and it appears that many are claiming saturated groups when they clearly are not. A couple that are often claimed here to be saturated but are not are the Linea Minis and the La Spaziales. Even La Marzocco is careful to separate the Linea Mini from its machines with saturated group heads. Here's some info:

Dan's thread here shows a true saturated group head and distinguishes it from the E61.

This thread shows the La Spaz setup, which seems to be a lot closer to an E61 relative to the distance between the heating water/steam and the dispersion area. Clearly the water heating section does not include the area above the dispersion.

This one shows the Linea Mini "Integrated Group" which La Marzocco distinctly separates from its saturated groups (using their comparison tool) as it does not encompass the area above dispersion.

The Breville Dual Boiler shown here appears to be among the few true saturated groups (if they only had true flow profiling) and probably the only one that's not a high-end machine. edit: not so, see below

Anyhow, I'm not going to call out the vendors, but I hope users who find saturated group heads important are at least aware that many claim this feature on machines that do not have it.
Not sure why your hell bent on finding a hill to die on but in no way whatsoever does LM claim the Linea Mini has a saturated group, so you are making false claims against a company.

It says very plainly on the La Marzocco site "INTEGRATED GROUP - A combined boiler and brew group achieve thermal stability in a reduced footprint."

It'd be appreciated if you could keep your post to the facts instead of saying companies are making false claims.

In addition, in every industry and/or product retail channel, product descriptions and features are frequently wrong and this is nothing new and completely normal, so I'm not really too sure why you're presenting this information like it's a revelation or conspiracy.

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pizzaman383
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#29: Post by pizzaman383 »

Tonefish wrote:I may well be stuck in the past. There's just something special about doing something well with fewer (or no) moving parts and little to go wrong. I must confess that I still roll down my car windows with a crank and prefer it that way. :)
If you look at most of the saturated groups there are in fact many parts that can wear or go wrong.
Curtis
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pizzaman383
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#30: Post by pizzaman383 »

pcrussell50 wrote:Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner ^^^

For example, the BDB was designed specifically with a Scace device, to kill it in a Scace test back during that era (launched Fall 2011). Not some other industrial tool, but an actual Scace device. It's literally what they used to tune their multiple PID stages. And I'd be very surprised if DE didn't also.

-Peter
From what I saw discussed, DE started with a Scace then designed their own version of a similar device more suited to their use in testing.
Curtis
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“Taste every shot before adding milk!”