False claims of saturated group heads (buyers beware). - Page 2

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#11: Post by Tonefish » Dec 04, 2019, 7:37 pm

lancealot wrote:Perhaps this might be helpful:
Group heating mechanism typology
Too bad it doesn't cover "saturated groups." :P :D
Maybe JIm is implying that whoever started the term chose the wrong term. :lol:

Just noting again that even La Marzocco distinguishes an integrated group separate from a saturated group.
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#12: Post by pcrussell50 » Dec 04, 2019, 7:40 pm

Tonefish wrote: The Breville Dual Boiler shown here appears to be among the few true saturated groups (if they only had true flow profiling) and probably the only one that's not a high-end machine. edit: not so, see below.
Correct. BDB is not saturated. It is similar to the LMLM in that the boiler sits directly on top of the group, and is small and thermally agile, but it's not integrated like the LMLM. Where it gets its legendary "Scace-killer", "saturated group" temperature stability is by employing "DE technology"... Not only is the brew boiler on a PID, but there is a heater in the group itself also on a PID, to add the final trim. Of course Breville was doing this for years before DE, so maybe DE is borrowing a little from Breville? ;)

BTW, "Slayerlike" (IOW two speed) profiling comes stock on the BDB. Full blown beginning to end flow profiling is a simple reroute of the internal tubes through the existing needle valve. No parts, no cutting drilling or screwing, fully reversible. Quite a few of us have done it.

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#13: Post by chimopaul » Dec 04, 2019, 7:42 pm

Profitec Pro 300 (Screen grab from web search)



#14: Post by Tonefish » replying to chimopaul » Dec 04, 2019, 7:53 pm

Looks pretty saturated!
LMWDP #581 .......... May your roasts, grinds, and pulls be the best!


#15: Post by Javier » Dec 04, 2019, 7:56 pm

Tonefish wrote:Living with an E61 and interested in saturated group head concepts, I've been digging into group head designs and vendor websites (sales galore this week), and it appears that many are claiming saturated groups when they clearly are not.
Perhaps an official definition (based on hydrodynamics and mechanical innards of group) of what exactly is meant by "saturated group" should be provided? I know what is supposed to mean, but (like you said) there are many claims .... Just an idea.
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#16: Post by baldheadracing » Dec 04, 2019, 8:01 pm

EthanL wrote:Lots of domestic machines have saturated groups, where the group head is part of the lower boiler, Silvia, Gaggia Classic and many Saecos, because the boiler is so small(usually smaller than 500ml) that it can be on top of the group head. But with commercial machines, boilers are big that they're distanced from the group head, metal tubes are used in between. Or, open a hole on the boiler peripheral and mount a group head directly to get a saturated one.
The Silvia is not saturated. The group is offset to use a similar geometry to the E-61 (right down to the plug that people put thermometers/pressure gauges in), albeit with a solenoid-controlled three-way.

The 57mm brass brew group with 250ml capacity found in the Lelit Anna and used to be found in many home Italian machines is saturated. I have a Mokita with one that I used as my office machine. Although the idea was obviously to cut costs - no 3-way in the conventional sense is possible - it was very temperature stable as long as you made at most a 14g double shot. As with all saturated groups, there is only one relatively thin layer of metal between the shower screen and the boiler. As such, I wouldn't say that the Saeco and some of the older Ascaso's of similar specification are saturated - they're more "boiler on top of group" like the Pro 300.
chimopaul wrote:Profitec Pro 300 (Screen grab from web search)
The Pro 300's group is called a "ring brew group" by Profitec. If the group was saturated, then I'm sure Profitec and the other manufacturers that use the 'same' group would be saying so.
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#17: Post by HB » Dec 04, 2019, 8:59 pm

Javier wrote:Perhaps an official definition (based on hydrodynamics and mechanical innards of group) of what exactly is meant by "saturated group" should be provided?
And why one should care? :lol:
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#18: Post by Javier » replying to HB » Dec 04, 2019, 9:40 pm

I know, right? :D
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#19: Post by Tonefish » Dec 04, 2019, 10:01 pm

HB wrote:And why one should care? :lol:
I know why you care (since you have one)!
Javier wrote:I know, right? :D
Do you? :lol:

If a saturated group weren't a good thing for ultimate temperature stability, then there wouldn't be so many claiming to have one. Hydrodynamic definitions is a whole other story though, and maybe not so valuable to the espresso aficionado.
LMWDP #581 .......... May your roasts, grinds, and pulls be the best!


#20: Post by Javier » Dec 04, 2019, 10:42 pm

Tonefish wrote:Do you? :lol:
It was a little bit of "tongue in cheek", since I don't own one. :lol: :lol: Unless an Arrarex Caravel would be considered a saturated group.
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