ECM Synchronika and Profitec Pro 800 Comparison

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def
Posts: 452
Joined: 6 years ago

#1: Post by def »

A couple of months ago I purchased a barely used Profitec Pro 800 from another HB member. I had done my homework, and I like the features of the Pro 800 best among all the other similar prosumer lever machines in this price level, however I was unsure whether I would like it sufficiently to replace my ECM Synchronika dual boiler E61 group. To be sure, I compared both machines for about six weeks with various coffees; in the end I decided to keep the spring lever pro 800 and sell the Synchronika. This thread includes my detailed notes on why I chose the pro 800 over a very good E61 dual boiler machine.

def (original poster)
Posts: 452
Joined: 6 years ago

#2: Post by def (original poster) »

Some weak areas of the ECM Synchronika

My main critique of the Synchronika is that it sometimes makes a lot of noise from the pump. The pump is isolated with rubber feet, similar to how an engine in a car is soft-mounted to reduce noise and vibration, however sometimes the side panel will start vibrating and develop a harmonic resonance that is fairly annoying. I could stop the noise by putting pressure on the side panel. Sometimes the noise was very low, sometimes rather high. This did not affect functionality, and it really is not a huge concern because I would only need to tolerate the noise for a couple minutes maximum per day.

I disassembled the side panels of my Synchronika to inspect the source of the vibration/noise. The pump is soft mounted, but there is a tie wrap that couples it to another part of the machine, and effectively that coupling causes the rest of the machine to vibrate. After I reassembled, much of the noise went away because I think the panel screws were a little loose before. But it was still not silent, and sometimes would still develop some noise which I feel is a little annoying.

Another concern was whether the small brew boiler and the rather small group of the E61 provided sufficient temperature stability. I do not know for sure because I never measured with Scace thermometer, but I suspect that most E61 DB machines with 0.75 liter boilers suffer a little from poor thermal stability between shots, which is important for consistent shots.

Lastly, my final critique of the Synchronika is wet and sloppy pucks that require rinsing the PF basket every time. I use my espresso machine several times every morning; waking up to good espresso is the highlight of my entire day, so I want every part of the workflow to be a positive experience. It is a very small inconvenience, and it does not affect the espresso quality, but cumulatively these wet messy pucks are something that gets old after a while.

mike guy
Posts: 248
Joined: 8 years ago

#3: Post by mike guy »

I had the same issue with the panel vibration and was solved by reseating the panels. I also need to keep a dummy cup on the tray warmer which dampens the noise. With the chassis vibration solved, it's very quiet. I have access to a LMLM and it's on par.

FYI - Puck sloppiness is more a function of the coffee type you are using, preinfusion, grind size, and basket headspace. Some coffees I get very dry pucks, some you get very soupy pucks. This is true of any machine. LMLM, slayers, etc all can create dry or sloppy pucks regardless.

def (original poster)
Posts: 452
Joined: 6 years ago

#4: Post by def (original poster) »

ECM Synchronika Strengths

There are many nice features. The build quality and thus reliability is superb. It is easy to operate, it makes great espresso, the steaming power is really good. The PID is excellent, and offers the ability to quickly change and see brew and steam boiler temperature. This makes it a great machine for comparing different espresso beans. I also felt that the built-in shot timer is something that I could not part with, and I do miss this feature. The looks of the Synchronika with silver PID display is stunning.

One of the best things about the Synchronika is that it warms up in 15 minutes. You cannot beat that for convenience.

I had mine plumbed in with my water supply pressure regulated at about 1.5 bar, which allows one to preinfuse at that pressure by lifting the brew lever up to the halfway point. For light roasts that often require finer grinds than dark roasts, it really helps to be able to preinfuse at low pressure for good, even extractions. For dark roasts, I found that preinfusion is usually unnecessary.

While I did not purchase/test the flow control device, another positive is the availability of these devices. Perhaps this levels the playing field between spring levers and E61 DB machines?

def (original poster)
Posts: 452
Joined: 6 years ago

#5: Post by def (original poster) »

mike guy wrote:I had the same issue with the panel vibration and was solved by reseating the panels. I also need to keep a dummy cup on the tray warmer which dampens the noise. With the chassis vibration solved, it's very quiet. I have access to a LMLM and it's on par.

FYI - Puck sloppiness is more a function of the coffee type you are using, preinfusion, grind size, and basket headspace. Some coffees I get very dry pucks, some you get very soupy pucks. This is true of any machine. LMLM, slayers, etc all can create dry or sloppy pucks regardless.
Glad you solved the vibration issue. I think I might have been able to work through this myself, perhaps with some foam and maybe adjusting the tie wrap around the pump.

I agree that different coffee affects the pucks, and in particular light roasted coffees were the worst. But even very dark roasted coffee had messy pucks on the Synchronika which never came out completely clean and required multiple hard knocks and rinsing.

mike guy
Posts: 248
Joined: 8 years ago

#6: Post by mike guy »

def wrote: But even very dark roasted coffee had messy pucks on the Synchronika which never came out completely clean and required multiple hard knocks and rinsing.
That can indicate a problem with the 3 way valve, so you might have a warranty claim. That is a hassle for sure, and I can understand the frustration with that. All I can say is that for a traditional espresso blend, like lusso GMC, I get dry pucks that I barely have to wipe out, so the machine is definitely capable of producing dry pucks and using the valve to remove the headspace water. The machine is certainly capable of producing dry pucks, unless I grind super fine and use a long pre infuse or bloom to get it to extract. But any machine that chokes on a fine grind will soupify the puck.

I'm using a VST 18gram basket, in case that matters.

Anyway, not trying to convince you to keep the syncronika or anything, the 800 is a fine machine too, just posting for posterity in case anyone else runs across these issues and is looking for solution advice.

def (original poster)
Posts: 452
Joined: 6 years ago

#7: Post by def (original poster) »

Profitec Pro 800 Weak Areas

My main critique is that one has no way of knowing what the brew temperature is when it hits the group and the coffee bed. There is one giant 3L boiler, and just one setting on the PID -- the temperature of the boiler which is by default set at the factory to 248F. I knew all about this going into my purchase because I read Dan's review and many other user posts about temperature management of the Pro 800 and lever machines in general. Some people purchase temperature probes so they can monitor the heat of the group head.

Another consequence for this large group and boiler is that while you can change the temperature of the boiler via the PID control, this does not provide the ability to change the temperature of the group head rapidly. So this is a limitation, however there are lots of experienced users who know flushing techniques for changing the brew temperature. I have not really figured this out yet, and need actual measurement with visual feedback to know what affects what. For now, I go by taste, and when I switch to a light roast or any roast that requires higher brew temperature, I bump up the boiler temperature. The bottom line however is that I no longer switch between espresso beans in the same day; this is a feature of the Synchronika that I miss.

Very long warm up time -- 45 minutes minimum.

No automatic shot timer. :cry: Actually, I don't really miss this feature so much because I know a good extraction rate by sight and taste.

def (original poster)
Posts: 452
Joined: 6 years ago

#8: Post by def (original poster) »

Profitec Pro 800 Strengths

Many strengths:

It is an excellent machine and built well, just like the Synchronika. I simply love this machine, and although I generally seek the very best in everything I own, I also enjoy saving money where possible. I feel this machine is the sweet spot of of all prosumer machines and is the one which will keep me happy for the next 20 years. The truth is the Synchronika would also keep me happy -- it is a great machine also, but I like the pro 800 a little more.

Silent operation when plumbed in makes me very happy. Most people don't care about silent operation, but a loud grinder and loud espresso machine reduces my enjoyment of using such equipment. My Monolith Flat and Pro 800 are a perfect combination for excellent espresso.

It is a simple machine to operate, and easy to get great extractions. My daughter said that it is very simple to operate, and she is not an experienced home barista.

What else? Dry and clean pucks that knock out perfectly clean and whole with a light knock every time, with all types of roasts from light to dark. Every time. It is a wonderful feature that I now would not want to live without.

Preinfusion from boiler pressure, about 1.2 bar. Preinfusion also can be used to control the amount of water that passes through the portafilter -- longer preinfusion gives greater yield.

Temperature stability of the pro 800 is probably better than the Synchronika, but I do not know this for certain. I speculate that it is better because of the massive 17 pound Bosco group head and massive boiler.

Steaming power is great, and with the four-hole tip it stretches the milk much more and faster than the two-hole tip of the Synchronika. I prefer the way the pro 800 steams more than the Synchronika, even though the latter has higher temperature steam boiler and more power. Both are good however and I am splitting hairs.

One of the best features is the ability to manually control the flow rate through the puck by holding back the lever. You can really slow down the ramp in pressure by controlling the lever. The ability to slow down the pressure build-up allows me to grind much finer than when using a constant 9-bar pressure machine. However I typically only use this for medium and light roasted coffee; for medium-dark and dark roasts I typically do not use preinfusion or a slow ramp-up in pressure.

The spring lever also has a general pressure profile curve that many say produces ideal espresso. I tend to agree, but I won't elaborate on this because it has been covered well in other threads. I will say that the tests I did with two dark roasts side by side with the Synchronika versus the lever yielded excellent espresso on both machines and no noticeable taste difference. In summary, in my opinion the lever produces better tasting shots for lighter roasts, but equivalent and offers no significant advantage for darker roasts (at least for the two that I compared which were Counter Culture 46 and Zeke's 1812). Generally though, I like the pressure profile curve of a spring lever over a constant pressure machine. For many coffees, the ramp up and ramp down of a spring lever probably produces better tasting/less bitter shots than an automatic pump machine.

def (original poster)
Posts: 452
Joined: 6 years ago

#9: Post by def (original poster) »

Knobs versus Levers

I got used to using the lever controls of the Synchronika and I felt I would miss them, but now I prefer the knobs over the levers. It is not a deal breaker either way however. Both are fine, but the lever makes it a little difficult to control the mid way flow of the hot water wand, whereas the knob is ideal for adjusting the right amount of water flow. In other words, the lever often causes water to gush out of the hot water wand. Similarly, with the steam wand, it is a little difficult to slow down the steam output with the lever. It is basically fully on or fully off, whereas with the knob you can slow down the steam output easily.

Again, not a huge factor, but I prefer the knob control over the lever. I think the ultimate control would be a lever like the Slayer uses -- a half turn gives complete adjustment between off and on.

elbertfunkleberg
Posts: 106
Joined: 5 years ago

#10: Post by elbertfunkleberg »

I switched from a Profitec Pro 700 to a Londinium (a Bosco based machine) and concur with your comments overall. When I bought the 700 I was basically clueless and just jumped on the E61 dual-boiler bandwagon assuming the masses were making the right choice. To cut a long short short - I was wrong. The bottom line is that the coffee from the lever machine has been noticeably and more consistently better. Today I would not advise anyone to buy any espresso machine that boasts constant temperature and pressure. My experience is admittedly very limited but that is my conviction now.

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