E61 group is warm but not hot

Need help with equipment usage or want to share your latest discovery?
mnad
Posts: 26
Joined: 6 years ago

#1: Post by mnad »

Hi
I'm new to the forum and hopeful to find answers to my ultimate espresso questions.
I have just purchased a new espresso machine (Bezzera Mitica TOP). The grouphead reaches a temperature of around 70°C but goes no higher. I discovered that if I flush the group and then leave the lever in the middle position, water drains from the group for 10-15 seconds and then stops. After I do this, the group heats up properly. Any idea whether this is normal?
The other question is also about the E61 middle position. On my machine (which runs on a tank for now), when I put the lever on the middle position (coming from off), water flows for 10-15 seconds. Is that how it's supposed to be?
Thanks everyone for your help !

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BaristaBoy E61
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#2: Post by BaristaBoy E61 »

Welcome to the forum.


It sounds like an internal valve within the E61 group might not be 'seating' well.

When the E61 lever is moved just past the 45° position water should flow if direct plumbed. This is the line pressure 'pre-infusion' position when direct plumbed. When reservoir is selected virtually no flow should flow in this position.

Your machine might other issues that are not directly related to the group.
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

mnad (original poster)
Posts: 26
Joined: 6 years ago

#3: Post by mnad (original poster) replying to BaristaBoy E61 »

Thanks for the input. What I forgot to mention is that steam and hot water work perfectly.
I'm not plumbed in and water flows out of my group for 10-15 seconds (maybe 10 ml) when I put the lever in the middle position. Maybe a valve issue but it doesn't explain why the group head doesn't get hot until I empty the water that comes out with the lever in the middle position.

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Randy G.
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#4: Post by Randy G. »

The draining of water when the lever is in the middle "at rest" position (hands off the lever in other words), some dribbling should come out of the 3-way "exhaust" opening at the bottom of the group, but no more than about 5ml or maybe 10ml or so. In that position the lever should have a small amount of free play. That position closes all the internal valves in the group.

For more info on how the E-61 works, consult the Vibiemme Domobar Double owners manual, (PDF download) pages 5 through 8. (DISCLAIMER: I created the manual but the download is free, hosted on Stefano's website, Espressocare.com)

Do you have a thermometer IN the group? In other words, how are you reading the group temperature.
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erics
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#5: Post by erics »

mnad wrote:The grouphead reaches a temperature of around 70°C but goes no higher.
How are you measuring this? And after what period of time does the grouphead reach that temperature?

Your machine needs about 45 minutes to reach a stable temperature.

It is "normal" for water to continue to flow after flushing with the lever in the middle position BUT that procedure you are performing is not correct. The water is being syphoned out of the cam chamber. The neutral position of the brew lever has no functional purpose. Lifting the lever slightly above neutral (as previously mentioned) can achieve a little pre-infusion with a plumbed in machine. I would only do that as an experiment in taste.
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U2jewel
Posts: 75
Joined: 6 years ago

#6: Post by U2jewel »

mnad wrote:Hi
I'm new to the forum and hopeful to find answers to my ultimate espresso questions.
I have just purchased a new espresso machine (Bezzera Mitica TOP). The grouphead reaches a temperature of around 70°C but goes no higher. I discovered that if I flush the group and then leave the lever in the middle position, water drains from the group for 10-15 seconds and then stops. After I do this, the group heats up properly. Any idea whether this is normal?
The other question is also about the E61 middle position. On my machine (which runs on a tank for now), when I put the lever on the middle position (coming from off), water flows for 10-15 seconds. Is that how it's supposed to be?
Thanks everyone for your help !
When lever is in middle position, E61 does disperse some water from the grouphead. How much varies from machine to machine, because grouphead architecture is basically the same, but the boiler position and layout, along with the length of copper piping inside are all different.

On my machine which is a rotary pump, tank fed like yours, during the middle position, hot water comes out of the shower screen only. The rotary pump is yet to be activated. When I put the lever down to closed/off, only then I have some water come out of the exhaust. I use this to pre-wet the puck, working to help avoid channeling.

This only works when the boiler is at hot temperature. When cold, no water comes out from shower screen even when lever being in middle position. I'm guessing it is the pressure from hot water inside the boiler pushing water out..

Why your grouphead won't get hot? Without looking, cannot be sure...

But it sounds like, machine being new, that somehow you didn't prime the boiler properly. Air pocket somewhere in the thermosyphon loop. Could most likely be in the pipe coming from boiler to grouphead.

This might help..
When your machine is cold and off, turn the lever to middle position, and leave it there. Turn on power to machine. Lever still in middle position. As your boiler comes up to temperature, slowly water should start to dribble. When that starts, pull lever to full open, and let water at full flow come out of gh(grouphead). Run it for about 30 seconds then pull lever down /off.

If above method does not solve the GH temp (should be so hot, you burn yourself if you touch it for long..) then try this below.

To be done when machine is cold and off.. maybe quicker fix is to open the mushroom on the top, fill it with water, and close it trying not to let air back in..

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Randy G.
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#7: Post by Randy G. »

U2jewel wrote: On my machine which is a rotary pump, tank fed like yours, during the middle position, hot water comes out of the shower screen only. The rotary pump is yet to be activated. When I put the lever down to closed/off, only then I have some water come out of the exhaust. I use this to pre-wet the puck, working to help avoid channeling.
Unless there is some great disparity in E61 designs, the "true" middle position places all valves in the group in the closed position. You should not have to manually hold the lever in that position. It should stay in place on its own with a slight amount of freeplay becasue the came is not pushing on any of the valves. In a plumbed machine with rotary pump, if you lift the lever slightly past that described "middle position" it will open the brew valve without engaging the pump and allow line pressure to flow water through the brewing path and out through the shower screen. With a loaded portafilter locked in place this is used for preinfusion.
EspressoMyEspresso.com - 2000-2023 - a good run, its time is done

mnad (original poster)
Posts: 26
Joined: 6 years ago

#8: Post by mnad (original poster) »

U2jewel wrote:On my machine which is a rotary pump, tank fed like yours, during the middle position, hot water comes out of the shower screen only. The rotary pump is yet to be activated. When I put the lever down to closed/off, only then I have some water come out of the exhaust. I use

This might help..
When your machine is cold and off, turn the lever to middle position, and leave it there. Turn on power to machine. Lever still in middle position. As your boiler comes up to temperature, slowly water should start to dribble. When that starts, pull lever to full open, and let water at full flow come out of gh(grouphead). Run it for about 30 seconds then pull lever down /off.

If above method does not solve the GH temp (should be so hot, you burn yourself if you touch it for long..) then try this below.

To be done when machine is cold and off.. maybe quicker fix is to open the mushroom on the top, fill it with water, and close it trying not to let air back in..
Thanks U2jewel!

I suspect that it is a thermosyphon issue, maybe an air bubble or similar. However, it seems like the thermosyphon starts to work properly when I flush and drain the water in the middle position. The machine warms up correctly and stays hot as long the machine stays on. However, I have to repeat this process every time I turn the machine on.

mnad (original poster)
Posts: 26
Joined: 6 years ago

#9: Post by mnad (original poster) »

erics wrote:How are you measuring this? And after what period of time does the grouphead reach that temperature?

Your machine needs about 45 minutes to reach a stable temperature.

It is "normal" for water to continue to flow after flushing with the lever in the middle position BUT that procedure you are performing is not correct. The water is being syphoned out of the cam chamber. The neutral position of the brew lever has no functional purpose. Lifting the lever slightly above neutral (as previously mentioned) can achieve a little pre-infusion with a plumbed in machine. I would only do that as an experiment in taste.
Thanks Eric. Yes, I know that it's not correct. But it's the only way I can get the machine to get hot, else it remains like warm. Steam and hot water work perfectly, but the group head remains like warm until I drain it as described. Then it stays at the right temperature until I turn the machine off. I have to repeat the process every time I turn it on.

mnad (original poster)
Posts: 26
Joined: 6 years ago

#10: Post by mnad (original poster) »

Randy G. wrote:The draining of water when the lever is in the middle "at rest" position (hands off the lever in other words), some dribbling should come out of the 3-way "exhaust" opening at the bottom of the group, but no more than about 5ml or maybe 10ml or so. In that position the lever should have a small amount of free play. That position closes all the internal valves in the group.

For more info on how the E-61 works, consult the Vibiemme Domobar Double owners manual, (PDF download) pages 5 through 8. (DISCLAIMER: I created the manual but the download is free, hosted on Stefano's website, Espressocare.com)

Do you have a thermometer IN the group? In other words, how are you reading the group temperature.
I don't have a thermometer in the group. When I start the machine, after 30-40 minutes, the group head is Luke warm. I can touch it without burning for 5-6 seconds. The water that comes out is at 65C. Then I perform my drain process by putting the lever in the middle position. The group head warms up and can no longer be touched in a few Minutes and the water coming from the group head is at 85C.

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