Does basket diameter matter? - Page 2

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malachi

#11: Post by malachi »

RapidCoffee wrote:Second, the jury is still out on optimal basket size and shape. Answering this question will require a careful study performed on two otherwise-identical machines, one with a 58mm grouphead and the other with a smaller (53-54mm?) grouphead.
Actually... been done. Illy experimented extensively -- and I think at least a couple machine manufacturers have as well.

I believe it's covered in the Illy book.


Pet peeve.... assuming that just because no-one in the home barista community has tested a hypothesis or done an experiment it's never been done. Chef's Magazine drives me nuts because they never simply ask a professional any questions. Similar issue...
"Taste is the only morality." -- John Ruskin

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RapidCoffee
Team HB

#12: Post by RapidCoffee »

malachi wrote:Actually... been done. Illy experimented extensively -- and I think at least a couple machine manufacturers have as well. I believe it's covered in the Illy book.
Obvious counterargument:

Commercial Espresso Machines Tamper Sizes
Astoria - 58mm
Astra - 58mm
Aurora - 56mm
Azykoyen - 58mm
Bezzera - 58mm
Brasilia - 58mm
Bunn - 58mm
Caramali - 58mm
Cimbali - 57mm
Conti - 58mm
Dalla Corte - 54mm
Elektra - 58mm
ECM - 58mm
Elektra - 58mm
Expobar - 58mm
Expobar - 58mm
Faema - 58mm
Fiorenzato - 58mm
Futurmat - 58mm
Gaggia - 58mm
Grimac - 58mm
Isomac - 58mm
La Marzocco - 57mm
La Pavoni - 56mm
La Spaziale - 53mm
Laranzato - 58mm
Pasquini - 57mm
Rancilio - 58mm
Nuova Simonelli - 58mm
Rancilio - 58mm
Reneka - 56mm
San Marco - 53mm
Synesso - 58mm
Unic - 56mm
VFA - 58mm
Wega -58mm

Home & Semi Commercial Espresso Machines Tamper Sizes
Ascaso/Innova -57mm
Astra - 58mm
Bezzera - 58mm
Bodum Granos - 51mm
Delonghi BAR32, BAR42, BCO264B - 51mm
DeLonghi - Because portafilter sizes are not consistent, please check with the manufacturer or re-seller for your proper size.
Elektra - 58mm
Expobar - 58mm
*Francis! Francis! X1 (old model) - 53mm or 52mm
Francis! Francis! X1 (new) - 56mm
Grimac - 58mm
Krups - 49mm
La Pavoni Europiccola - 49mm
La Pavoni Millennium - 51mm
La Pavoni Professional - 51mm
La Pavoni Lusso, Pisa, Si - 53mm
La Pavoni Club Combo, Duet - 58mm
La Pavoni lever machines (mfg. 1999 and newer) - 51mm
La Pavoni lever machines (mfg. pre 1999) - 49mm
La Valentina - 58mm
Olympia Express - 49mm
Pasqini Livia - 58mm
Rancilio - 58mm
Saeco - 53mm or 52mm (53mm is reported to be a somewhat of a tight fit.)
Spaziale S1 - 53mm
*Starbuck's - 53mm or 52mm (53mm is reported to be a somewhat of a tight fit.)
*Solis - 53mm or 52mm (53mm is reported to be a somewhat of a tight fit.)
Quickmill - 58mm
VFA / La Valentina - 58mm
Wega -58mm

Not only do basket diameters differ, but basket height and shape varies widely. You really think there's consensus? :shock:
malachi wrote:Pet peeve.... assuming that just because no-one in the home barista community has tested a hypothesis or done an experiment it's never been done. Chef's Magazine drives me nuts because they never simply ask a professional any questions. Similar issue...
Peeves notwithstanding, I've read Illy (although it's been a while). If there was a compelling study on PF diameter, I've forgotten it. Unfortunately commercial manufacturers are not always generous about sharing their findings.
John

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malachi

#13: Post by malachi »

Come on... just because there is no standard doesn't mean that research hasn't been done.
Seriously.
"Taste is the only morality." -- John Ruskin

Endo

#14: Post by Endo »

It's quite obvious if you check the facts.....56mm is optimal (average of all diameters listed above). 8)

But seriously, the fact that more fines extraction happens on the upper surfaces (and the 58mm has 20% more upper area than a 53mm) is the main reason for the difference in the cup.

As far a tilting is concerned, the 53mm will be less sensitive if you wiggle the handle a defined amount. It's not opinion, it's just geometry. It's only a small amount, so I agree it shouldn't make a big difference.

Right now, I must say I prefer the 58mm over 53mm (but only very slightly). Still, I actually own a 53mm for the time being simply because I just love the double boiler Vivaldi, and nothing else can compare at the same price. Always some compromises.
"Disclaimer: All troll-like comments are my way of discussing"

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Marshall

#15: Post by Marshall »

RapidCoffee wrote:First, let me assure you that it is indeed possible to to perform a non-level tamp in a smaller diameter basket (in my case, 53mm Spaziale double basket, Bumper tamp with nice thick base). Maybe I'm just talented. :lol:
No, your wrist is crooked. :D
Marshall
Los Angeles

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RapidCoffee
Team HB

#16: Post by RapidCoffee »

malachi wrote:Come on... just because there is no standard doesn't mean that research hasn't been done. Seriously.
Love to see it. Seriously.

From Illy:
7.5.4 Cake shape
The shape of the coffee cake, determined by the filter's shape, is important when considering peculiar forms that deviate from the traditional ones, universally accepted by current coffee machines. The classical shape of the double dose is cylindrical, around 12 mm in height by 60 mm in width, the exact dimensions depending on the machine.
Yeah, that was exceptionally useful. :P
John

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RapidCoffee
Team HB

#17: Post by RapidCoffee »

Marshall wrote:No, your wrist is crooked. :D
But my heart is pure. :)
John

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peacecup

#18: Post by peacecup »

Ponte Vecchio 45 mm
Caravel 43 mm

These are both lever machines and the smallest diameters I know of. They are both very easy to pull good shots on, but I've never used a 58 mm machine.
LMWDP #049
Hand-ground, hand-pulled: "hands down.."

hperry

#19: Post by hperry »

I have a 43 (Caravel), 54 (Dalla Corte) and 58 (Termazona lever). Each requires a different approach to get a good shot. This makes "readjusting" when I go from machine to machine a bit of a challenge. I can't say that I experience basket size making a whole lot of difference as far as channeling is concerned though. Overdosing the Termazona works well, wheras the Dalla Corte resists much overdosing at all. I don't have a bottomless portafilter for the Caravel. Judging by taste though it is the most forgiving in terms of grind and dosing variation. At least in my environment choosing the right technique with each size seems to be more important than the size itself.
Hal Perry

Endo

#20: Post by Endo »

One thing I've noticed lately from my 53mmm naked pours is the "nutation" type tamping move seems to be a much more important step than on the 58mm. Guess it has something thing to do with putting a higher tamping pressure on the edges for the more square puck.
"Disclaimer: All troll-like comments are my way of discussing"