I remembered reading some things about e61 temperature stability in a commercial environment vs home. The main idea was that in the commercial environment, when pulling back to back shots and when the group is tuned correctly, the group don't need no stinkin' water dance.

I could not remember it exactly so I did some HB search function usage.

Lotsa fun stuff on this site about E61. Here are just two. Good stuff.

E61 Group Espresso Machine: Is its reputation justified?

The E61 Group - Truth and Lies

Also lot's of interesting stuff on E-61 on this site: http://www.espressomyespresso.com/

Did you guys know it's actually named after a meteorite?

Thanks for the link - interesting stuff.
But, afaik, the E61 is named after an eclipse, not a meteorite - the total solar eclipse the happened in Italy in 1961. Eclipse 61. There won't be another here for a couple of centuries.

Ah, see astronomy is not that much my strong point thx!

malling wrote:I agree with RickC, technologically speaking the E61 is outdated and has been so for a very long time. If you look closely at professional espresso machines, fewer and fewer uses an E61 or equivalent. This design is often seen on cheaper entry level and prosumer equipment for low volume settings.

Sorry, but a quick look around the most recent HOST exhibition would show that this opinion is not upheld by reality. E-61 groups and clones with minor variations are still big business. Functionality, cost and reliability go a long way to overcoming other shortfalls. Like the original Eames lounge, the design and engineering was as close to perfection as mortals get.

Alan

I didn't write that a few uses them, but fewer uses them. 10 years back the sheer number of E61 where far larger than today also in avaliable models. Where I live and that is a picture I see all across europe, is that e61 is being replaced. 10 years ago I encountered them in many cafes, and even third wave shops, now it happens rarely. But obviously it takes time as an espresso machine is seen as an expensive and long term investment, there is still allot of smaller cafes (especially in Southern Europe) where low tech, low investment e61 is the only reasonable choice.

Several manufactures (with a few exception) used an E61 or similar on their top end machine 5-10 years back. That is not the case any longer and even midrange machines are quickly replacing the E61 design. That do tell you something, it also tells that the advanced technology is getting cheaper. And sooner rather than later that technology will find its way into entry level. The belief that technology don't evolve is wrong, the fact is that within 5 years we will have super auto that can make better or equal quality of a normal espresso machine, and therefore it's a matter of time before these will sweep aside espresso machines in the cafe, hotel segment. In 10-20 years I doubt we will encounter many places with a traditional machine outside the specialty industry and conservative coffee circles (like Italy)

let's see if those full auto's arrive and how much maintenance they require. I suspect that the price range will be similar to an e61, the longevity remains to be proven, downtime costs money in a commercial environment as well as the repair bills. Typically anything electronic does not get repaired but whole circuit boards, components are swapped and these often have hefty price tags where the underlying issue is a 20cent resistor or capacitor.
In the end the espresso machine is not the most important factor in the extraction.

So far my Feamina has held itself for 60+ years, with low maintenance while I have used it and I'm sure it'll hold 60 more years.Now using the Urania that is equally old, and I'm sure that will be around for another 60 years easily. A friend of me has a high end super auto, that machine has just been repaired or is in for repair every time I see him and I've never had a cup (forget about espresso, now talking regular coffee) that tasted interesting enough to even consider buying one if just for convenience in the home office.

Technology is great, and it is advancing but IMO it's horses for courses and to generalize to the extent that the e61 is outdated because new technology is available IMO is oversimplifying at least one end of the equation a bit. For a bar where nobody wants to invest in some barista training a super auto high techie thingy may sound like great solution but until the machines are able to determine quality on their own someone with half a brain and some background will have to make some adjustements every now and then.

I think your missing the point, the E-61 were fantastic at the time it where invented. But today where you have to bang out multiple shots in succession with a long queue of customers waiting in line, a take out environment where you there are ambient temperature changes and draft, exposed massive metal grouphead is going to get into problems! You'll need temp stable groups to deliver a constant quality that cope with such conditions.

It sounds like you won't acknowledge that we have better groups today that suits the coffee scene better, simply because it is vastly more precise and predictable than the E61. Some of us tried to explain why that is so.

As Perger is saying it is all about consistency, and as long as we have humans as a variable, we will find that the consistency and quality will be hard to achieve. I see more and more places getting super autos, and with good reason, you only have to show them how to push a button, meaning less trained and less expensive staff (students or similar)

The next are modular, so they just change the modules that breaks down, replace those within minuts = short break down time, no need for extended repairs that take your machine out for service for months! We all know time is money.

Just like the E61 and other pump machines meant the end of the Leveres of the time, in most locations, the advanced machines of today will ultimately be the end of the E-61 on the broader scene, but we will most likely still be present at a few traditional or romantic placed that worship the old way and technology.

Yes the quality of that group will surely outlast most made of the day, but how many out there really cares about it. The majority buy stuff that doesn't last very long, than just buy new stuff when it breaks down. We can sit here and argue about negative impact of that, but that still doesn't change where we are going, in the end machines will replace man power in many fields, the same will happen in the coffee industry, and it goes faster tan we like it to. Don't forget that Perger is cooperating with a superauto manufacturer, this just shows how fast the development goes.

lancealot wrote:Not me. It is 2017, I have a super-computer in my pocket. I want a La Spaziale Vivaldi with a 58mm group and better cup clearance. Better yet, a BDB that is built to last and has parts readily available.

If Breville can simply take the existing BDB and maybe make a Pro model that addresses most of the issues people have with the BDB and maybe add a stainless steel casing instead of the plastic, I think that would be a winner

Whoa, this thread really took off. I saw that the LUCCA A53 has a saturated group head and is pretty well thought of. It's just so...not attractive (in my opinion). I'm strongly considering waiting to buy a new espresso machine now. Was gonna go with the Profitec Pro 700; I may now just get the 300 and wait for whatever the future may bring. Well, this has been very interesting, thanks everyone!