Do you guys think the E61 grouphead is outdated? - Page 4

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RikC
Posts: 263
Joined: 7 years ago

#31: Post by RikC »

Also interesting, even Rocket is migrating to a fully saturated group with their new R9 one group machine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpzxpDNS8PQ

This used to be their entry level commercial machine but it appears smaller than the old hx one group R9. So maybe it'll also be their top-spec prosumer unit in the near future. Also has pressure profiling to top things off...

Marcelnl
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Joined: 10 years ago

#32: Post by Marcelnl »

malling wrote:I think your missing the point, the E-61 where fantastic at the time it where invented. But today where you have to bang out multiple shots in succession with a long queue of customers waiting in line, a take out environment where you there are ambient temperature changes and draft, exposed massive metal grouphead is going to get into problems! You'll need temp stable groups to deliver a constant quality that cope with such conditions.

It sounds like you won't acknowledge that we have better groups today that suits the coffee scene better, simply because it is vastly more precise and predictable than the E61. Some of us tried to explain why that is so.

As Perger is saying it is all about consistency, and as long as we have humans as a variable, we will find that the consistency and quality will be hard to achieve. I see more and more places getting super autos, and with good reason, you only have to show them how to push a button, meaning less trained and less expensive staff (students or similar)

The next are modular, so they just change the modules that breaks down, replace those within minuts = short break down time, no need for extended repairs that take your machine out for service for months! We all know time is money.

Just like the E61 and other pump machines meant the end of the Leveres of the time, in most locations, the advanced machines of today will ultimately be the end of the E-61 on the broader scene, but we will most likely still be present at a few traditional or romantic placed that worship the old way and technology.

Yes the quality of that group will surely outlast most made of the day, but how many out there really cares about it. The majority buy stuff that doesn't last very long, than just buy new stuff when it breaks down. We can sit here and argue about negative impact of that, but that still doesn't change where we are going, in the end machines will replace man power in many fields, the same will happen in the coffee industry, and it goes faster tan we like it to. Don't forget that Perger is cooperating with a superauto manufacturer, this just shows how fast the development goes.
I don't think I missed the point, yet putting out vast quantities of espresso has not been an issue in Italy where the majority of shops use the e61 group as far as I'm aware and have seen. I see evolution as something inevitable but not necessarily something that means a lot, trading solidly performing machines for those that can be repaired easily but producing more waste as a trade off that does not makes sense to me until those machines become or get close to be as sturdy as the old ones. See it as a different opinion about risk/benefit.

Surely having an uninterested operator being able to serve better espresso than when doing so with a machine requiring more involvement may have some benefit but I beg to differ by thinking that the operator involvement will not readily become as low as pushing a button unless the software (beans) or their handling evolves at a similar rate becoming inherently stable over their shelf life.

I've had enough poor shots from really high end gear in shops to accept there is some merit in having more operator proof machines but I happen to think that an easier, more cost effective and better solution is to train people how to accommodate the coffees at hand and invest in better beans and grinders. but to each his own ;-)
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pallen
Posts: 62
Joined: 16 years ago

#33: Post by pallen »

lancealot wrote:I remembered reading some things about e61 temperature stability in a commercial environment vs home. The main idea was that in the commercial environment, when pulling back to back shots and when the group is tuned correctly, the group don't need no stinkin' water dance.
That has been my understanding and experience as well. My Expobar becomes more stable the more drinks I do back to back. Its the long periods of idling where things get out of whack.

But yes, it is outdated. There is better tech available now, but at a price. The commercial shops are more likely to pay that price since that's how they make their money. As a home user, I'm very happy with my E61 and will be for a long time. I know my machine and how to make it do what I want it to do. If the newer designs come down in price to below E61s, I would expect to see the E61s slowly go away. The E61 had a helluva run and its not finished yet.

malling
Posts: 2899
Joined: 13 years ago

#34: Post by malling »

Marcelnl wrote:I don't think I missed the point, yet putting out vast quantities of espresso has not been an issue in Italy where the majority of shops use the e61 group as far as I'm aware and have seen. I see evolution as something inevitable but not necessarily something that means a lot, trading solidly performing machines for those that can be repaired easily but producing more waste as a trade off that does not makes sense to me until those machines become or get close to be as sturdy as the old ones. See it as a different opinion about risk/benefit.

Surely having an uninterested operator being able to serve better espresso than when doing so with a machine requiring more involvement may have some benefit but I beg to differ by thinking that the operator involvement will not readily become as low as pushing a button unless the software (beans) or their handling evolves at a similar rate becoming inherently stable over their shelf life.

I've had enough poor shots from really high end gear in shops to accept there is some merit in having more operator proof machines but I happen to think that an easier, more cost effective and better solution is to train people how to accommodate the coffees at hand and invest in better beans and grinders. but to each his own ;-)
The coffee scene in Italy is still somehow traditional, many of the shops and coffeehouses are still relatively small (although some of the more popular can be hectic in rush hour) you get a shot of espresso at a "bar" or at a table in a porcelain cup, drink it, perhaps have a small conversation, read a paper/book (or what ever floats your boat) and then leave!, very local, nice atmosphere, but it doesn't get close to being as hectic as found elsewhere or the starbucks infesting the country these days. The coffee used also tend to be burned to death and filled with robusta, sitting in a doser, so no one will be able to tell if the machine is less consistent, it really doesn't matter, you can get away with pretty much anything with that coffee.

Obviously you can find better quality shops, where sweet, balanced, fullbodied shots keep the traditional taste alive, and yes things are changing, but at a relatively slow pace, also thanks to a rather conservative legislation putting restrictions on prices and drowning everything else in bureaucracy.

Do that with a fresh light roast, and you get a horrible cup of coffee as a nice reward. That particular profile is demanding and require a very precise, accurate, stable and reliable machine that deliver the same every time, as that coffee has a very, very narrow sweetspot so precision is key to a consistent high quality. Not really needed in Italy as the coffee is very forgiving and has a relatively large sweetspot so precision is less vital.

RikC
Posts: 263
Joined: 7 years ago

#35: Post by RikC »

Actually the better electronic control becomes the more the moment that E-61 will also be beaten in value for money nears. The BDB proves this point from a technology point even though it has an undersized steam boiler and is plastic fantastic. The LMLM also proves being it the least expensive machine LM has offered so far while holding up to their standards. All this with a much smaller volume of water in the grouphead than their other machines. Imagine it not being crafted by hand in Florence, with half the size steam boiler (it would than still be in prosumer territory) and without a 3mm thick stainless steel housing (thing is built like a tank) and the cost could come down quickly. I expect machines that hold between the middle of these two machines in terms of material use, quility of finish, boiler sizing to start appearing on the market in the coming years. It may take a while because designing a new machine on a new working principle that you cannot simply take from the shelf as a manufacturer and testing it sufficiently is a large investment. It becomes worthwhile when the benefits become more apparent and the cost become lower. Since those two things are both happening I think it's mainly a matter of time before E-61 becomes (visually appealing 8)) legacy.

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BaristaBoy E61
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#36: Post by BaristaBoy E61 »

The E61 is analogous to the analogue turntable and as with the turntable, the pending death of the ubiquitous E61 is greatly exaggerated.
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

Marcelnl
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#37: Post by Marcelnl replying to BaristaBoy E61 »

to me this is a quotable quote :P

Rik, I hear you and what you say is probably spot on, I know work is progress in that area but with all electronic 'progress' I still much favor a well designed tube amp over anything transistor based. For now I have my needs for espresso machines covered and I don't I'll ever need or want anything else but that is not to say there is no place in the market for new machinery.
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RikC
Posts: 263
Joined: 7 years ago

#38: Post by RikC »

Ah yes, that's also what I mean with my comment 'visually apealing' at the end of my previous post. I think E-61 always has an attractiveness especially as a design. I seriously considered a Rocket R58 or R60v or ECM Synchronika just because of looks (my shortlist was LMLM, Profitec 300, R58 or R60v, ECM Synchronika). I thus also expect E-61 to be available for the length of days. But just like vinyl record players and tube amps marketed to an audience that appreciates such equipment.

Prescott CR
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Joined: 9 years ago

#39: Post by Prescott CR »

Maybe when we're reading 'outdated' we're thinking that means not useful anymore. Something can be old but still work fine for 99% of us.
-Richard

pallen
Posts: 62
Joined: 16 years ago

#40: Post by pallen replying to Prescott CR »

Oh definitely. I think of "outdated" as no longer a popular option people are buying brand new. I fully expect to still be running my E61 machine 10 yrs from now, but I don't think there will be many of these in stores by then. Not as much because of how much better the new machines are, but because the new ones will be a little better, and a lot cheaper.