RikC,
Thanks for this reply. It expresses many of my thoughts about the E61 much better than I could.

Damn it. Now i want an LMLM.

Not me. It is 2017, I have a super-computer in my pocket. I want a La Spaziale Vivaldi with a 58mm group and better cup clearance. Better yet, a BDB that is built to last and has parts readily available.

I hear you on the BDB! The creature comforts and cup quality are very good, wish there was a more robust version. The Vesuvius has some perks like the 5 pressure profiles and the 2x a day auto on/off controls. A mash-up of the two would be nice.

RikC- thanks for all that explanation. Makes me wonder what could be done with spring lever machines, perhaps the new LM machines are that combo of new/old.

Thx for the compliment, I thought i'd be good to eleborate upon from a technical point of view

In terms of design the LMLM and BDB do differ a bit. If I'm correct the latter has a heating element (ring group) around the pf holder. And a separate brew boiler. In the LMLM these parts are integrated.

A machine thats also somewhat similar is the Profitec 300. It has a ring group. But not a heat exchanger in the steam boiler like the LMLM and BDB.

Another machine which is off course similar is the Dalla Corte Supermini.

@Prescott CR, I don't know the Leva's design. But if it's similar to other large LM machines then I reckon the piston chamber in the grouphead is immersed in a body of water (hence the term saturated group).

very interesting, thanks!
the Profitec 300 seems like a good value

Yes, I think it is also. Especially if you're not planning on serving lots of cups in rapid succesion and frothing lot's of milk.

Strange as it may sound because of the price difference but I had it on my shortlist together with the LMLM.

I agree with RickC, technologically speaking the E61 is outdated and has been so for a very long time. If you look closely at professional espresso machines, fewer and fewer uses an E61 or equivalent. This design is often seen on cheaper entry level and prosumer equipment for low volume settings.

The vast majority of the high end equipment uses either a saturated design or some type of electronically heated group design, that keep the system within a narrower temperature range, more stable and makes them less fragile for ambient temperature changes, the NS T3 should be one of the most precise and allot of other manufacturers have since then introduced their own T3 inspired design, even Faema has skipped it on their newer E71.

However the group serve its purpose on home equipment, where the need for a grouphead that is less influenced by ambient temperatures changes is less needed. Our kitchen dos not have the temperature variance og is exposed to the same amount of draft that is common in commercial setting and we don't pull allot of shots in succession, often we pull shots far in between making the kind of stability a ridiculous overkill, in a home environment groupheads should be low expenditure and easy to maintain and repair that doesn't require a certified technician.

The high end groups are expensive, needs bleeding at set up, expensive to maintain and repair and requires constant maintenance that require more skills. There is a good reason why you rarely see them on prosumer machines!

malling wrote:The high end groups are expensive, needs bleeding at set up, expensive to maintain and repair and requires constant maintenance that require more skills. There is a good reason why you rarely see them on prosumer machines!

Yes, justly said. There are quite good reasons why you still see a lot of E-61 especially in home machines.

One addition: newer saturated group machines often don't need manual air bleeding anymore. This has been achieved by altering the design. Kees van der Westen was the first to do so to my knowledge.

And I forgot to mention the Nuova Simonelli machines in my reference to newer group designs. For completeness (also T3 tech) the Vicoria Arduino Theresia should then also be mentioned. Temperature control up to 0,1 degrees C

(I do think that machine is quite ugly though, let alone wildly expensive even compared to LM It is one of the few machines where attention has been paid to energy use in standby though trough thermal management and insulation)

It is far easier to find a repair person for an e61 group than for almost any other machine. Also, the supply chain for e61 spare parts is ubiquitous and universally available. Even in Israel.

It is a consideration for many who are not hands-on in maintaining and repairing their machine.