Decent Espresso V1.4 - Page 10

September 15th, 2020, 1:28 am

decent_espresso wrote:And for what it's worth, the final reality was that a ZPM machine cost only 30% less to build than a DE1+ does. Not much less for a big difference in what you get. The cost savings they hoped for, weren't there, once the design and BOM was finalized.

That LCD screen they used, if I remember correctly, cost over $100 just on its own, never mind the custom designed linux machine behind it, and the designed-from-scratch controller for it. Their retail prices were never going to work, but they didn't know that going in, as ZPM's original goal was just to sell a small number of machines they hand-built. Also, they were made in America, in Los Angeles, which is an expensive way to go.

I believe James Hoffmann has a ZPM in his studio (I've spotted it in some of his recent videos) and so might be making a video about it.

And lest anyone think I'm being critical of ZPM's mistakes, I will point out that I got into this, years ago, thinking we could build a Decent machine and sell it profitably at $999. I was extremely naive.

I'd rather say that we bought the assets, so that we could learn from their experience, but that we then started from scratch. There's nothing of ZPM's inside a Decent except for a vision of uniting computer technology with espresso.

But I will say that the hand-built 2nd ZPM, that I borrowed for a bit, made quite good espresso, better than almost any I'd had at that time. They crafted the heater's power curve for a very specific flow rate, grind, roast level and dose, and if you only made that one kind of espresso, you got an excellent drink. Our first Decent prototype, shown at a Portland trade show, did the same thing. As long as the programmer is standing next to the machine, this approach works perfectly.

-john

Yeah, I remember reading/seeing those stories and just thinking, 'Man, I got a deal.' Only to realize, yeah, making stuff is hard. That team definitely shot for the moon, heck, someone's got to try. As I said, John, cool to see your team keeping it going. I remember getting emails from your team during that transition period, but the wound was still fresh. Now I can look at it as my lesson in crowdfunding.

October 26th, 2020, 8:40 pm

The oddest thing just happened here. I responded to a post by someone who has NOT had a positive experience with Decent. This post and my questioning was taken down. Why?

October 26th, 2020, 9:56 pm

That post was from somebody who was part of the early-advisor's forum to Decent, and has a personal beef with me.

They felt they were due a free machine, and not a machine at parts-cost, which is what I had offered. At the time, I thought our parts cost was $720 (it turned out later to be about 50% higher) and so I offered those early advisors a DE1 with refill kit, at $720. All but 3 of the advisors took me up on that offer. I know of at least one of them who later resold his machine for over $2000.

My guess is the post violated HB's guidelines (being a personal gripe), and so was deleted.

At any rate, I've tried to be even-handed above in my description of the disagreement, and so don't plan on writing anything more about it.

-john

October 26th, 2020, 10:17 pm

Thank you, John, for your reply. I have had nothing but positive experiences with you. You are brilliant and fair. I have not put a down payment on a Decent only because I haven't found anyone who will let me test one out. You are the Tesla of espresso machines. Much of this revolution comes from software and computer engineering. This isn't a simple mechanical machine and so there has to be a way to take one for test drive.

#95: Post by **Jeff** » October 26th, 2020, 10:33 pm

Drop DE a message through their website and they may be able to pair you up with someone, even in these crazy times.

#96: Post by **Seanlan** » October 28th, 2020, 9:40 pm

It sure does.

#97: Post by **Me2** » October 29th, 2020, 4:18 pm

Honestly having come from a rotary pump dual boiler e61, considering what my decent is capable of vs my other machine, I could care less how it sounds.

#98: Post by **Willinak** » December 20th, 2020, 10:41 am

Not sure if this is the best place to post, but here goes: I have read so much about the DE+ that my brain is on overload, however I haven't read much on issues encountered. As owners, what has been your long term experience in regard to the equipment itself (not how well it brews)? Given the very high temp/pressure are there scale issues or build up? Basically what maintenance is required and or problems encountered?

barri wrote:All you have to do is ask.I was given access the day after I paid.
They have been concerned, however, by the small number who were turned off by some of the posts referring to problems and cancelled their sale. So they generally give you something to read first before they invite you to the forum.
Thanks to the early access I have learnt a lot so its worth doing.

This sounds troublesome given that I'm probably a future buyer.

#99: Post by **jevenator** » December 20th, 2020, 12:24 pm

Willinak wrote:Not sure if this is the best place to post, but here goes: I have read so much about the DE+ that my brain is on overload, however I haven't read much on issues encountered. As owners, what has been your long term experience in regard to the equipment itself (not how well it brews)? Given the very high temp/pressure are there scale issues or build up? Basically what maintenance is required and or problems encountered?

This sounds troublesome given that I'm probably a future buyer.

Information overload! I definitely know the feeling.

No scale issues if you use proper, non scale water. Otherwise there as some that just descale and that's it to fix that issue.

I've had a few weird GHC glitches that wouldn't let it stop the shot and it might be due to electromagnetic fields. Hasn't happened in a long time now. I've had one weird shot with what looked like air in the pump but we checked and there's no leaks or anything so it's probably a fault of my end where i ran out of water, turned it off, refilled, and never flushed to kind of bring up water to the pumps.

Few little "issues" I read more problems about other problems.

#100: Post by **mdreuben** » December 20th, 2020, 1:06 pm

Willinak wrote:Not sure if this is the best place to post, but here goes: I have read so much about the DE+ that my brain is on overload, however I haven't read much on issues encountered. As owners, what has been your long term experience in regard to the equipment itself (not how well it brews)? Given the very high temp/pressure are there scale issues or build up? Basically what maintenance is required and or problems encountered?
This sounds troublesome given that I'm probably a future buyer.

Actually, the Decent is much easier to take care of than most other machines.

It's a LOT easier to clean, as it doesn't use the 3-way valve present in most other machines. This means that used, wasted, coffee and sludgy water isn't being sucked back into the system. It stays much cleaner that way. Most people just occasionally remove their shower screen and clean it and the brew-head area using some Cafiza and a brush.

In terms of descaling, the same rules apply as with all other machines. You want to use softer water and make sure you purge after steaming. Actually, the purge part is automatic, as the Decent will send a burst of steam through the wand after steaming is completed. This will prevent milk from being sucked back into the machine. If for some reason your water is hard and scaling forms, it's usually able to be cleaned by running a citric acid water mix through the machine. Again, the lack of boilers in the machine is totally your friend, as it eliminates those places where crud builds up.

Support is also pretty amazing. After making a post on the Basecamp communication system with a question or possible problem, there hasn't been a single instance where it's taken more than half and hour to have the problem analyzed and a fix found. This really is a community of helpful, caring, and incredibly smart people. In the vicinity of 2,000 machines have been sold so far, so this is no longer a "startup" by any means, except that it feels like one in spirit and cooperation.