Going back to the trip tray cover. IKEA's kitchen Trivet is simple, functional and looks neat. The bars would obviously be closer together, to prevent the tiny espresso cups from tipping.

grawk wrote:My take on it was for $1200, I'm getting a machine I'm hoping makes coffee to rival MUCH better machines, and it's a consumable. If I get 5 years from it, and then get the next iteration at that point that's got all the lessons learned, that will be a huge win, from my perspective.

Exactly. You guys are standing in line to buy the first generation iPhone. Chances are most of you will be in line for the DE2 in 2 years. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and I don't think it's a poor comparison of what's going on here. I dare say John hopes I'm right. It's not a product that's meant to last forever. It's just meant to last long enough until the next cool thing. Probably you'll be able to upgrade it for a while, but eventually they'll want to encourage you to move on to a newer better model. The commercial models will need to be a bit more durable than the consumer models, but I think it's also reasonable to assume most Cafes that would want one of these would be planning on upgrading in 5 years or so.

@decent_espresso has mentioned the Toyota Prius numerous times, and I think that's an apt metaphor as well. The Prius did indeed hold up better than many feared. Some of the 2004 models are still on the road, though I've also passed up offers of free 2004-2007 Priueses (Priui?). They lasted as long as they needed to for the first owners not to feel burned, but when you have to decide wether to spend ~$4000 to replace the batteries on a car with a resale value of less than $2000, it seems obvious what's going to happen. Also relevant to this conversation: the wildly popular 2004 Prius was not "Version 1", and there were probably more than a few 2003 Prius buyers out there who wished they had waited.

Thanks for pointing out the trade-offs. To comment on John's typewriter analogy, classic typewriters still exist and work today too. I'd also imagine that getting parts for these "vintage" machines eventually becomes difficult and more expensive as time passes.

Bottom line is it depends on what you want. If you want a single purchase to pass on to your grandkids then I'd say you're taking a risk with this. I'd also say most of us in this line are "ok" with the idea of upgrading in a few yrs.

So that said, I take it you're just observing for now(and yeah I bet this thread is in the top 5 of most talked about as of late). Once the reviews come in, IF the de becomes the best thing since sliced bread, are you taking the plunge?

randomorbit wrote:Tablet computers are using essentially the same hardware as your cellphone, how many people on this board have a cellphone more than 5 years old that still functions properly? OTOH, I have a few rotary desk phones that are over 70 years old that still work as well as they did when they were brand new.

This is not really the same situation as a smartphone. Over time, smartphones are less likely to function well for many reasons that don't necessarily apply here, including:

• Non-replaceable battery that no longer holds a charge (the tablet here will be plugged in for power)
• Hardware that doesn't support operating system upgrades (no need to upgrade the OS here)
• Incompatibility with latest apps (only one app that matters here)

That said, we are talking about an inexpensive, off-the-shelf tablet that wasn't designed for a long life. (The comparison to the Pioneer 10, which was specifically designed with longevity in the harsh conditions of outer space in mind is thus not terribly useful for our purposes.) And it's unclear whether it will be easy to replace it, in the event of failure, with some random Android tablet. First, the app might not be broadly compatible with other tablets. Second, John has mentioned that the stability of the bluetooth connection is in part due to the specific pairing of bluetooth chips in the machine and tablet, so ideally any replacement tablet would need to use the same bluetooth chip. It's not even clear that we'll be able to replace the tablet with the same model tablet in case of failure - in a few years, it's quite possible that the old tablet won't still be in production, and any replacement tablet might use a different bluetooth chipset.

So there's definitely some risk here in terms of longevity. And if my DE1+ doesn't work in 5 years, I'll actually be pretty sad. I don't see a $2k espresso machine as something that I want to replace every 5 years. (I bought my one and only espresso machine for about $550 about 14 years ago, and continue to use it on a daily basis.)

But if the DE1+ doesn't last 50 years, I'm ok with that. I'm hoping for something on the order of 10 years, and if it lasts 20 years, that'll be great.

anakinstoys wrote:So that said, I take it you're just observing for now(and yeah I bet this thread is in the top 5 of most talked about as of late). Once the reviews come in, IF the de becomes the best thing since sliced bread, are you taking the plunge?

Never say never, but it's probably not for me. As affordable as it may be relative to some of the machines represented in this forum, my current system grinder and espresso machine included cost less than half the price of a DE1. I don't have as much disposable income as a lot of the folks on this forum, and if I did, I would probably be more inclined towards something a little more hands-on. So I'm probably not the target audience, but I have been finding it difficult to ignore this thread in spite of the fact that the machine doesn't particularly appeal to me, and when a question came up that I had a strong opinion on, I couldn't resist joining the conversation.

Yes I understand the appeal of this machine, and assuming it lives up to the hype, I'm sure it will continue to be wildly popular. I'm not trying to pee on anyone's parade, just pointing out that of all the things this machine intends to be, timeless is not amongst them. In 10 years if it's reached it's greatest potential, it may be the machine that started it all, in which case it will not be as good as the ones that came after it.

DJF wrote:I believe the DE format is the future of a large segment of the coffee machine market, so much so I can't wait to see a 3 group in a busy cafe

I can just see the time when my Grandson and Great-Granddaughter are walking through the Pompidou centre or Smithsonian ..... they stop at one of the displays to admire the beauty and simplicity of a DE1 ,,,, they remark "these DE guy's started the revolution to let even Grandpa make great coffee, these guy's were the game changers, the innovators, the Job's of espresso machines"

I am just loving being able to share in this whole adventure with someone who has a vision, ton's of passion and the cahoonas to follow it through.

It won't be for everyone, but that OK

I recently had a furnace repair done on my 2009 natural gas high efficiency model. The repairmen installed a control board meant for my neighbor whose furnace is a 1996 propane furnace. Everything worked fine on my unit - I found this massively confusing. You can't do this in the kind of technology I work with.

The DE machines could be in a similar place. The software that runs on the tablet will run on future tablets. Bluetooth or something compatible to it will also continue. Would it bother me to replace a control board in 10 years? Not at all. I have bought replacement parts for 2 year old Pavoni's.

patrickff wrote:Going back to the trip tray cover. IKEA's kitchen Trivet is simple, functional and looks neat. The bars would obviously be closer together, to prevent the tiny espresso cups from tipping.

Yep, I spotted the Ikea too, since I moved to HK two years ago and my apartment is almost 100% filled with Ikea furniture.

Below is our first pass at a new drip tray design. We're using 2mm thick bars here. I'll want to try some thicker ones and see how that looks and works.

randomorbit wrote:Never say never, but it's probably not for me. As affordable as it may be relative to some of the machines represented in this forum, my current system grinder and espresso machine included cost less than half the price of a DE1. I don't have as much disposable income as a lot of the folks on this forum, and if I did, I would probably be more inclined towards something a little more hands-on. So I'm probably not the target audience, but I have been finding it difficult to ignore this thread in spite of the fact that the machine doesn't particularly appeal to me, and when a question came up that I had a strong opinion on, I couldn't resist joining the conversation.

@randomorbit, I've ordered a pe-release DE1 and live up in Cabot. You'd be welcome to come up and check it out once its here.

Yes I understand the appeal of this machine, and assuming it lives up to the hype, I'm sure it will continue to be wildly popular. I'm not trying to pee on anyone's parade, just pointing out that of all the things this machine intends to be, timeless is not amongst them. In 10 years if it's reached it's greatest potential, it may be the machine that started it all, in which case it will not be as good as the ones that came after it.

10 years? That's probably quite true. My family has active users of iPhone 4s, 5s, 6, and SE - even the 4s is quite useable, and its more than 5 years old now. But no one was using the original iPhone five years after it came out. Still, though, along with @roastini, I'd be disappointed if the DE1 were unusable after five years.

ErikMH wrote:@randomorbit, I've ordered a pe-release DE1 and live up in Cabot. You'd be welcome to come up and check it out once its here.

Hey another Vermonter on here! I'd love to check it out, or even just get together to geek out on Coffee sometime. Have you tried Bohemian #5? It makes a damned fine espresso.