DE1 vs GS3 - Page 2

Need help with equipment usage or want to share your latest discovery?
User avatar
TigerStripes
Posts: 222
Joined: 5 years ago

#11: Post by TigerStripes »

coffeeyoutoo wrote:People who have only used home espresso machines do not know the disadvantages of vibration pumps.
The disadvantage of the vibration pump is not just the noise; it simply lacks the power to push the coffee.
The difference in power between motors and pumps is familiar to those who work in cafes and bars.
Even in commercial espresso machines that use rotary pumps, there is a clear difference in the force that pushes out very fine grinds even at the same pressure setting depending on the pump capacity and motor output.
Vibration pumps, which are weak in power, use pre-infusion to cope with fine grinding, but rotary pump machines can produce force to push finer grinding into straight 9 bar extraction.
Pre-infusion feels like the taste is rounded out, but in the end, the malty defects are also extracted.
If you can extract it by pushing it without using pre-infusion, that is a much better choice.
This is why most cafe baristas do not use pre-infusion.
For that reason, I think rotary pumps are much better than vibration pumps, even for home use.
Basically everything you wrote is incorrect. This has been disproven many times.

There may be subtle differences between rotary pump espresso vs vibration pump espresso, but it's nothing like you are claiming.

Vibration pumps usually have a slower ramp up to full pressure than rotary pumps, but even that is not necessarily true given the size of the water restrictor (gicleur) on rotary machines.
LMWDP #715

mlunsford27
Posts: 168
Joined: 5 years ago

#12: Post by mlunsford27 »

coffeeyoutoo wrote: The key is whether you can exert your strength to the end without getting tired when strong resistance is generated at the fine grinding level at the limit.
The force shown at 9 bar on the pressure gauge when you open the valve and let water flow is not everything.
When strong resistance is applied to the actual puck, the rotary pump can push it out without getting tired, and can actually use a finer grinding level than a vibration pump.
Commercial espresso machines are also external and tuned with stronger motors.
Rotary pumps may be able to put out more flow than vibe pumps but that is the main difference I see. I think to say vibe pumps are fundamentally inferior is just wrong.

User avatar
EvanOz85
Posts: 718
Joined: 12 years ago

#13: Post by EvanOz85 »

coffeeyoutoo wrote:People who have only used home espresso machines do not know the disadvantages of vibration pumps.
The disadvantage of the vibration pump is not just the noise; it simply lacks the power to push the coffee.
The difference in power between motors and pumps is familiar to those who work in cafes and bars.
Even in commercial espresso machines that use rotary pumps, there is a clear difference in the force that pushes out very fine grinds even at the same pressure setting depending on the pump capacity and motor output.
Vibration pumps, which are weak in power, use pre-infusion to cope with fine grinding, but rotary pump machines can produce force to push finer grinding into straight 9 bar extraction.
Pre-infusion feels like the taste is rounded out, but in the end, the malty defects are also extracted.
If you can extract it by pushing it without using pre-infusion, that is a much better choice.
This is why most cafe baristas do not use pre-infusion.
For that reason, I think rotary pumps are much better than vibration pumps, even for home use.
I'm sorry but what are you even trying to say? Do you not understand that bars are a measurement of pressure? How would 9 bars on a vibe pump be any "weaker" than 9 bars on a rotary? You're spouting nonsense. It's like the old joke about one pound of bowling balls being heavier than one pound of feathers. It's the same damn thing.

ron231
Posts: 58
Joined: 9 years ago

#14: Post by ron231 replying to EvanOz85 »

He is mostly wrong but I think he means flow rate, the fast fill on rotary machines is lovely :D

JordanK
Supporter ♡
Posts: 92
Joined: 1 year ago

#15: Post by JordanK »

All right, dude is wrong... and I thought I made it pretty clear how so in my initial replies. But no need to just pile on. If he didn't get the point already, probably not going to change now! :roll:

seacliff dweller
Posts: 122
Joined: 16 years ago

#16: Post by seacliff dweller »

Personally I have not used rotary pumps but had lots of experience with vibe pumps and now I am using a gear pump.
Many years ago, I was at a demonstration session in San Francisco with John Buckman personally introducing the decent machine. I don't believe the vibe pump has improved much since that time and John had a hard time trying to make his espresso. The issue was the decent machine keeps choking, which I experienced myself many many times before. I never had any issues after replacing with a gear pump.
IMHO, if I have a choice, I would use rotary/gear pump over vibe pump, but then costs and bulkiness could be factors you have to consider.

dfuller
Posts: 70
Joined: 3 years ago

#17: Post by dfuller »

ron231 wrote:He is mostly wrong but I think he means flow rate, the fast fill on rotary machines is lovely :D
Absolutely - I personally prefer the faster fill from higher water debit. I find too long of a ramp ends up being less distinct and more "generic coffee".

To me though the big benefit of rotary pumps is that they're so much quieter.

gobucks
Posts: 248
Joined: 2 years ago

#18: Post by gobucks »

seacliff dweller wrote:Personally I have not used rotary pumps but had lots of experience with vibe pumps and now I am using a gear pump.
Many years ago, I was at a demonstration session in San Francisco with John Buckman personally introducing the decent machine. I don't believe the vibe pump has improved much since that time and John had a hard time trying to make his espresso. The issue was the decent machine keeps choking, which I experienced myself many many times before. I never had any issues after replacing with a gear pump.
IMHO, if I have a choice, I would use rotary/gear pump over vibe pump, but then costs and bulkiness could be factors you have to consider.
This is nonsense. A vibe pump is plenty powerful to make espresso, if it's choking out that's likely from grinding too fine. The initial decent design was meant to be a low cost machine under $1000, they subsequently pivoted to making a high end machine, the base DE1pro is now over $3500, so I dunno what you saw "many years ago", but the current DE1 is more than capable of making espresso without choking.

seacliff dweller
Posts: 122
Joined: 16 years ago

#19: Post by seacliff dweller »

"The initial decent design was meant to be a low cost machine under $1000, they subsequently pivoted to making a high end machine, the base DE1pro is now over $3500, so I dunno what you saw "many years ago", but the current DE1 is more than capable of making espresso without choking"
Do you know the current vibe pump model used in the $3,500 decent?

gobucks
Posts: 248
Joined: 2 years ago

#20: Post by gobucks »

I have no idea which pump model they are using, I am not an espresso technician. I know that the DE1, which I own, is more than capable of producing great espresso. I don't know what happened at this demonstration, but it's quite a leap to go from him having trouble with the machine choking several years ago to the problem being that the vibe pump is insufficient, and yet another huge leap to assume that they have done nothing to address this problem in all these years, and are somehow getting away with selling an underpowered machine at this price point. To me, occam's razor suggests it's a lot more likely that what you saw was the grinder being set too fine, rather than him utilizing a pump that isn't up to the task, and then the company continuing to use a pump that isn't up to the task to this day. After all, we aren't talking about an entry level machine, we're talking about one that is getting compared to La Marzocco (see the video in this thread).