DE1 innovation long overdue
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- Posts: 1434
- Joined: 6 years ago
Just watching the Factory Tour by Decent Espresso.
Just 6 months into a really nice HX machine (and espresso in general) and realize that it is impossible to really develop extraction knowledge without knowing brew water temperature. That would be my one rant with most 'prosumer' espresso machines I've read about. Decent shows their shower screen, which (among other innovations) uses a temperature sensor mounted just above its screen.
I cannot believe this has not been incorporated into every HX machine now manufactured. When upgrade time comes, I'd never consider a machine without such a feedback system, nor would I recommend one. It should be relatively cheap to tie that into existing PID controller designs that have a digital readout and would allow the user to more quickly learn how to control this important variable as it affects extraction.
the SCACE might still be better for measuring that absolute water that hits the puck, but this is sure a whole lot closer that waiting for the steam water dance to stop.
Just 6 months into a really nice HX machine (and espresso in general) and realize that it is impossible to really develop extraction knowledge without knowing brew water temperature. That would be my one rant with most 'prosumer' espresso machines I've read about. Decent shows their shower screen, which (among other innovations) uses a temperature sensor mounted just above its screen.
I cannot believe this has not been incorporated into every HX machine now manufactured. When upgrade time comes, I'd never consider a machine without such a feedback system, nor would I recommend one. It should be relatively cheap to tie that into existing PID controller designs that have a digital readout and would allow the user to more quickly learn how to control this important variable as it affects extraction.
the SCACE might still be better for measuring that absolute water that hits the puck, but this is sure a whole lot closer that waiting for the steam water dance to stop.
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- Joined: 7 years ago
I have owned a DE1PRO for 3 months. I have learned so much in these past 3 months. Temperature is just the beginning. Understanding this mysterious 'preinfusion / pressure & flow profiling' is the real beauty right now. The information it provides gives you so much insight into exactly what is going on to your puck. On a traditional machine you use a timer and try to pull 60mls of volume in 25-30 seconds. If you get a little fancier, you use a scale and shoot for a 2:1 in that time period (roughly the same but since all coffees have different crema weighing is much more consistent). And then there's the DE1. I can now tell from a graph whether or not my grind needs to be tightened or not because I can see the actual flow going through the puck. This information is insane. If I want to lessen the flow for a sweeter shot, then I reduce pressure until I hit my desired pour rate. Save. Then repeat time and time again.
I watch so many people with pressure profiling machines sort of just moving pressure all around. Don't get me wrong, i 'get it' because they simply don't have the information that a DE1 owner has. It's just the old lever mentality with a pump machine where if you get really good with a particularly coffee then you can make some really good stuff. The purpose of the DE1 is not to make some super coffee no other machine can make. It's purpose, it's 'ethos' is to help you understand how to make that really amazing coffee, and then make it time and time again.
I could go on and on and feel free to ask any specific questions. But I'm learning now, for example, why 'trendy' low pressure shots (5-7 bar) are all the rage in 3rd wave Cafe's where they are using lightly roasted single origins. It simply makes for a sweet and very, VERY tasty shot. On a traditional machine, the standard E61 style 9 bar shot really works perfect for traditional blends. And it makes sense because those 'comfort blends' were all roasted and culvitated around that type of pressure profile.
If you have a traditional machine, then you have a choice to make: Do I want to keep 9 bar shots and have great blends and so-so single origin; or vice versa? Because while you can change pump pressure on those machines, it's not a process you'd want to do all the time, certainly not on back to back shots. Yes, on manual profiling machines you can do this if you know the 'sweet spot' in the 'dial' you're using (paddle, knob, etc); however, I can tell you it's very simple to just make a few tablet presses and my max pressure changes instantly.
The DE1 is a brilliantly designed machine. It does not do full pump on like other machines. That unique 'pulse' you hear is really, really cool. The pump pulses as needed to achieve the desired pressure / flow. When you're doing a declining pressure shot or a very tight ristretto, you barely hear the machine and at times you hear nothing. Very cool to watch the graphs, see the pour, and hear the machine do its magic.
I digress only to show some examples of this really cool technology in action. I agree, though; it's silly that in 2018 most machines seem to be manage by a pump calibrated to a certain max pressure / flow and a temperature that is set with an offset of 10C or more that may or may not be set properly depending on ambient conditions.
I had a Pro 500 and went to the DE1 after a short stint with a Pro 700 and BDB. The only things I think you'd miss are preheated cups via passive heat from a boiler (I just steam milk a little hotter now and don't notice it anymore), instant hot water (I just use a kettle now; DE1 can do water but it's slow because the pump and thermocoil are making it on demand), and a wetter puck (I highly recommend the DE1 Knockbox; makes a HUGE difference to keep from having a mess), and steam/brew at the same time (I'm too busy watching graphs and the beautiful bottomless for this to bother me; plus the microfoam is worlds better than I ever got from the Pro 500 or Pro 700). All of those are very minor sacrifices to make for such a small, powerful, fully customization machine that heats in under 4 minutes.
PS: A traditional machine needs a fully warmed portafilter to help with the thermal stability. The DE1 does not. You can grab a cold PF and the machine, with all 3 of those temp probes, will compensate automatically for the heat loss. Thus, if you want to fire off several shots in a row and have several portafilters, then go right ahead. Your coffee will not suffer because you use a cold PF. Bravo John for making the best domestic espresso machine on the market where too many 'Italian' manufacturers are too content with not solving 50+ year old problems with their machines.
I watch so many people with pressure profiling machines sort of just moving pressure all around. Don't get me wrong, i 'get it' because they simply don't have the information that a DE1 owner has. It's just the old lever mentality with a pump machine where if you get really good with a particularly coffee then you can make some really good stuff. The purpose of the DE1 is not to make some super coffee no other machine can make. It's purpose, it's 'ethos' is to help you understand how to make that really amazing coffee, and then make it time and time again.
I could go on and on and feel free to ask any specific questions. But I'm learning now, for example, why 'trendy' low pressure shots (5-7 bar) are all the rage in 3rd wave Cafe's where they are using lightly roasted single origins. It simply makes for a sweet and very, VERY tasty shot. On a traditional machine, the standard E61 style 9 bar shot really works perfect for traditional blends. And it makes sense because those 'comfort blends' were all roasted and culvitated around that type of pressure profile.
If you have a traditional machine, then you have a choice to make: Do I want to keep 9 bar shots and have great blends and so-so single origin; or vice versa? Because while you can change pump pressure on those machines, it's not a process you'd want to do all the time, certainly not on back to back shots. Yes, on manual profiling machines you can do this if you know the 'sweet spot' in the 'dial' you're using (paddle, knob, etc); however, I can tell you it's very simple to just make a few tablet presses and my max pressure changes instantly.
The DE1 is a brilliantly designed machine. It does not do full pump on like other machines. That unique 'pulse' you hear is really, really cool. The pump pulses as needed to achieve the desired pressure / flow. When you're doing a declining pressure shot or a very tight ristretto, you barely hear the machine and at times you hear nothing. Very cool to watch the graphs, see the pour, and hear the machine do its magic.
I digress only to show some examples of this really cool technology in action. I agree, though; it's silly that in 2018 most machines seem to be manage by a pump calibrated to a certain max pressure / flow and a temperature that is set with an offset of 10C or more that may or may not be set properly depending on ambient conditions.
I had a Pro 500 and went to the DE1 after a short stint with a Pro 700 and BDB. The only things I think you'd miss are preheated cups via passive heat from a boiler (I just steam milk a little hotter now and don't notice it anymore), instant hot water (I just use a kettle now; DE1 can do water but it's slow because the pump and thermocoil are making it on demand), and a wetter puck (I highly recommend the DE1 Knockbox; makes a HUGE difference to keep from having a mess), and steam/brew at the same time (I'm too busy watching graphs and the beautiful bottomless for this to bother me; plus the microfoam is worlds better than I ever got from the Pro 500 or Pro 700). All of those are very minor sacrifices to make for such a small, powerful, fully customization machine that heats in under 4 minutes.
PS: A traditional machine needs a fully warmed portafilter to help with the thermal stability. The DE1 does not. You can grab a cold PF and the machine, with all 3 of those temp probes, will compensate automatically for the heat loss. Thus, if you want to fire off several shots in a row and have several portafilters, then go right ahead. Your coffee will not suffer because you use a cold PF. Bravo John for making the best domestic espresso machine on the market where too many 'Italian' manufacturers are too content with not solving 50+ year old problems with their machines.
- Almico
- Posts: 3612
- Joined: 10 years ago
Eric's thermometer tells you almost everything you need to know on an E61 Hx machine. And varying the flushes can achieve most any usable temperature. You can even flip the brew lever on and off to play with preinfusion.Bluenoser wrote:Just watching the Factory Tour by Decent Espresso.
Just 6 months into a really nice HX machine (and espresso in general) and realize that it is impossible to really develop extraction knowledge without knowing brew water temperature. That would be my one rant with most 'prosumer' espresso machines I've read about. Decent shows their shower screen, which (among other innovations) uses a temperature sensor mounted just above its screen.
I cannot believe this has not been incorporated into every HX machine now manufactured. When upgrade time comes, I'd never consider a machine without such a feedback system, nor would I recommend one. It should be relatively cheap to tie that into existing PID controller designs that have a digital readout and would allow the user to more quickly learn how to control this important variable as it affects extraction.
the SCACE might still be better for measuring that absolute water that hits the puck, but this is sure a whole lot closer that waiting for the steam water dance to stop.
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- Posts: 1434
- Joined: 6 years ago
'
Absolutely agree; and why I have one on order.. although a sensor above shower will be more accurate because you still need to account for drops from Erics Thermometer insertion point. However, that added $200 (in Canada) to a $2000 machine. (10%). My point is that such information is not just "nice to have" but necessary for properly using any espresso machine of this level and so manufacturers should be providing this type of sensor feedback as it is much cheaper to design in from the beginning and hook into their controller. (And they'd give the customer a better user experience). I think it is a big 'miss' for HXwPID designs as they are promoting their thermal stability without providing a means for setting the PID optimally; and ultimately using that thermal advantage. (The tables provided by manufacturers as to PID setting vs brew water temp are so inaccurate as to be relatively unusable.. and likely due to environmental differences) Since no one, IMO, should purchase an HX without such feedback it adds significantly to the cost of the machine.
Absolutely agree; and why I have one on order.. although a sensor above shower will be more accurate because you still need to account for drops from Erics Thermometer insertion point. However, that added $200 (in Canada) to a $2000 machine. (10%). My point is that such information is not just "nice to have" but necessary for properly using any espresso machine of this level and so manufacturers should be providing this type of sensor feedback as it is much cheaper to design in from the beginning and hook into their controller. (And they'd give the customer a better user experience). I think it is a big 'miss' for HXwPID designs as they are promoting their thermal stability without providing a means for setting the PID optimally; and ultimately using that thermal advantage. (The tables provided by manufacturers as to PID setting vs brew water temp are so inaccurate as to be relatively unusable.. and likely due to environmental differences) Since no one, IMO, should purchase an HX without such feedback it adds significantly to the cost of the machine.
- Jake_G
- Team HB
- Posts: 4333
- Joined: 6 years ago
Do remember that by choosing to install a TS restrictor that puts the brew temperature lower than the flash temperature, Profitec has robbed consumers of the natural indicator of proper brew temp in exchange for a "flushless" workflow.
It's a pity indeed that better instrumentation doesn't come as standard equipment, but an HX that delivers even 1 second of flash steam after a thorough warm up allows you the opportunity to brew at any temperature you like without any additional equipment. The second you drop below the flash temperature with a warmed up machine, you are flying blind. As you have no doubt learned, "no flash steam" does not equal "proper brew temp".
While the characteristics of each machine are all a bit different, once you learn how your machine reacts, it's very easy and repeatable to taste a shot and make a determination of how much hotter or cooler it needs to be in terms of more or less flush time to hit a sweet spot. It is only when you don't have the physical indicator of flash steam coming from the group (and it is clear that no amount of flushing helps things) that the temp gauge becomes a necessity.
But yeah, Decent is awesome and hats off to John and team for driving creative destruction in the marketplace. Only when we as consumers demand this level of innovation will we begin to see the market shift. I'm cautiously optimistic of what we'll see coming out in the next few years...
Cheers!
- Jake
It's a pity indeed that better instrumentation doesn't come as standard equipment, but an HX that delivers even 1 second of flash steam after a thorough warm up allows you the opportunity to brew at any temperature you like without any additional equipment. The second you drop below the flash temperature with a warmed up machine, you are flying blind. As you have no doubt learned, "no flash steam" does not equal "proper brew temp".
While the characteristics of each machine are all a bit different, once you learn how your machine reacts, it's very easy and repeatable to taste a shot and make a determination of how much hotter or cooler it needs to be in terms of more or less flush time to hit a sweet spot. It is only when you don't have the physical indicator of flash steam coming from the group (and it is clear that no amount of flushing helps things) that the temp gauge becomes a necessity.
But yeah, Decent is awesome and hats off to John and team for driving creative destruction in the marketplace. Only when we as consumers demand this level of innovation will we begin to see the market shift. I'm cautiously optimistic of what we'll see coming out in the next few years...
Cheers!
- Jake
LMWDP #704
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- Posts: 986
- Joined: 8 years ago
I feel it's absolutely unacceptable that any pump machine more expensive the little plastic toys hasn't had every single feature DE has for years. I hate that this industry clings to almost 60 year old tech instead of pushing boundaries, and that stagnation is ever considered an acceptable option by anyone. I feel that it's not only overdue, but full on morally bankrupt on any manufacture just throwing a pump and e61 together to sell for a couple grand.
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- Posts: 197
- Joined: 10 years ago
@CwD I like the decent very much, but what machine you choose depends on your priorities. Some people value longevity and simplicity higher than many features. For those a traditional lever or HX machine is more preferable than a complex and potentially failure prone device like the DE1.
I suspect that my lambro will still do a decent job when many decent users have seen the second or third on their kitchen counter.
I suspect that my lambro will still do a decent job when many decent users have seen the second or third on their kitchen counter.
LMWDP #453
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What I find interesting about the DE machines is how the really keyed in upon what a home user might feel important, while opening new doors for the enthusiast. In my case, for example . . .
1. Limited kitchen space and cabinet height. DE1 fits.
2. Cabinet above the machine: I really hate to have 1 or 2 uninsulated boilers running all day just so I can make my 3-4 espressos, 1 Americano, and 1 Latte. This really heats up the contents in the cabinet above my machine. Granted, some units (like my Vivaldi) can disable the steam boiler, but with some units this is impossible or just awkward. A 4 minute startup like the DE1 makes a lot of sense from a home perspective.
3. Different roasts: Most of my shots are with one of the RedBird offerings, but when I want to expand my horizons it would be fun to have easier control on all aspects of the process. I could envision optimizing for different roasts and then assigning presets to them.
4. Cleanup. Finally, it's easy to clean water tanks! After years of cleaning my Livia tank, which was a bit of a pain. I would probably plumb the DE1 anyway, but I do appreciate the design.
5. Control: Even without going into profiling, the ease of changing basic aspects like temperature and pressure and flow are appealing. You don't have to find the programming IFUs, open the machine, or replace a gicleur. Also the ability to set the hot water output for my AM Americano is tempting.
I do not have one on order yet, but you never know. . . Hopefully the display will not bring back nightmares of organic chem and liquid chromatography . . .
1. Limited kitchen space and cabinet height. DE1 fits.
2. Cabinet above the machine: I really hate to have 1 or 2 uninsulated boilers running all day just so I can make my 3-4 espressos, 1 Americano, and 1 Latte. This really heats up the contents in the cabinet above my machine. Granted, some units (like my Vivaldi) can disable the steam boiler, but with some units this is impossible or just awkward. A 4 minute startup like the DE1 makes a lot of sense from a home perspective.
3. Different roasts: Most of my shots are with one of the RedBird offerings, but when I want to expand my horizons it would be fun to have easier control on all aspects of the process. I could envision optimizing for different roasts and then assigning presets to them.
4. Cleanup. Finally, it's easy to clean water tanks! After years of cleaning my Livia tank, which was a bit of a pain. I would probably plumb the DE1 anyway, but I do appreciate the design.
5. Control: Even without going into profiling, the ease of changing basic aspects like temperature and pressure and flow are appealing. You don't have to find the programming IFUs, open the machine, or replace a gicleur. Also the ability to set the hot water output for my AM Americano is tempting.
I do not have one on order yet, but you never know. . . Hopefully the display will not bring back nightmares of organic chem and liquid chromatography . . .
- rimblas
- Posts: 182
- Joined: 7 years ago
Good or bad, the plumbing and catering kits (they are two different units) re-fill the water tank. Even if plumbed in, you still get to grab the water tank and drop it in the dishwasher once in a while.JonF wrote: 4. Cleanup. Finally, it's easy to clean water tanks! After years of cleaning my Livia tank, which was a bit of a pain. I would probably plumb the DE1 anyway, but I do appreciate the design.
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- Posts: 331
- Joined: 16 years ago
That's certainly a more balanced view of what people are looking for in espresso machines. Decent has introduced some interesting features. But, not everyone wants an automatic espresso machine that makes you focus on every minute detail of brewing parameters. Some people like to be involved in the brewing process and appreciate the design of the current machines.yoshi005 wrote:...I like the decent very much, but what machine you choose depends on your priorities. Some people value longevity and simplicity higher than many features. For those a traditional lever or HX machine is more preferable than a complex and potentially failure prone device like the DE1...