Commercial espresso machines in the home - Page 3

#21: Post by **RapidCoffee** » May 24th, 2007, 11:23 pm

I've got an older one group Rancilio sitting in my basement (the L7 model, predecessor to the S27 and the Epoca line). An eBay purchase for about the price of a Silvia; required minor cleanup but was well worth it. The worst part was the nonprofessional packaging, coupled with classic UPS dropkick treatment (now available at no extra cost!), that fortunately only resulted in damaged side panels. This commercial model is particularly well suited for home use: 1200W heating element, 2.5L boiler (which I insulated), fits neatly under kitchen cabinets. I used it happily until my wife got me a Vetrano.

Based on my experience, I can understand the appeal of one group commercial models for home use. But I'd find it very difficult to justify a larger multigroup machine.

#22: Post by **hbuchtel** » May 25th, 2007, 4:36 am

ericpmoss wrote:My back-of-envelope calculation for use is:

Cimbali 2-group: 4200W

24x7: 4200 * 24 ~ 100kWh/day * $0.05/kWh = $5/day

Hold on, is that the way to calculate it? The machine is on 24/7, but the heating element is only on for maybe a couple seconds every minute, right?

I can't say I know the right way to calculate the power consumption, but this doesn't seem to be it...

Henry

May 25th, 2007, 5:01 am

It isn't. You can't calculate the consumption of machines like this as there are too many unknown variables. The only practicable way is to measure it.

In my case the element was on for about 12% of the time, this would reduce the $5 a day to less than $1.

Bill

May 25th, 2007, 6:20 am

HB wrote:Indeed, many high-end espresso machines have more capacity than needed and consume more energy than necessary for the humble purpose of producing 2-3 espressos per day. To see how extreme the membership considers the idea of a commercial espresso machine in the home, I've created a poll for this thread.

In leaving the definition of "commercial" intentionally vague, as you say, the poll won't be very revealing about the membership's opinions of what is "extreme". Perhaps had the poll been phrased like this:

How much would you be willing to spend, per month, on electricity alone for your home espresso machine?

$5
$10
$20
$30
$40 or more

Regards
Timo

May 25th, 2007, 6:34 am

Sleepless wrote:I saw the movie when it first came out in theaters (damn, I feel old!)

But you look good. Good crimson color in your cheeks.

Regards
Timo

#26: Post by HB » May 25th, 2007, 6:40 am

timo888 wrote:In leaving the definition of "commercial" intentionally vague, as you say, the poll won't be very revealing about the membership's opinions of what is "extreme".

There's many possible reasons why someone would/wouldn't consider a commercial espresso machine at home: Size, purchase cost, cost of ownership, etc. The poll is a simple yes/no and members can elaborate on their rationale if they wish.

#27: Post by **darrylr** » May 26th, 2007, 4:26 pm

If you're thinking of a commerical machine for the home, the electricity cost isn't the big factor, relatively speaking. It is the cost of repairing the machine when it breaks. Given the nature of steam valves and such, you can expect parts replacements probably every year and parts can be expensive. Also be prepared to do all the work yourself if you're concerned about money. Professional service is expensive, and frankly, is the best way to go unless you're mechanically inclined. Owning a commercial espresso machine, while very rewarding in terms of the coffee, isn't for the faint of heart or light of wallet!

Darryl

#28: Post by **RapidCoffee** » May 26th, 2007, 6:00 pm

darrylr wrote:If you're thinking of a commerical machine for the home, the electricity cost isn't the big factor, relatively speaking. It is the cost of repairing the machine when it breaks. Given the nature of steam valves and such, you can expect parts replacements probably every year and parts can be expensive. Also be prepared to do all the work yourself if you're concerned about money. Professional service is expensive, and frankly, is the best way to go unless you're mechanically inclined. Owning a commercial espresso machine, while very rewarding in terms of the coffee, isn't for the faint of heart or light of wallet!

Sorry, but I'm gonna disagree on most points. Other than items like grouphead gaskets, I'd expect commercial-grade equipment to last basically forever in a home setting. There's no reason why a commercial steam valve should need repair or replacement on a yearly basis, especially under light usage. In my (admittedly limited) experience, parts for commercial espresso machines tend to be no more expensive than home equipment. Overall, my used commercial machine was a lot lighter on the wallet than my new prosumer machine!

Of greater concern are the unknowns associated with purchasing a used commercial machine. Heavy (ab)use is much more likely in a commercial setting, which might necessitate a complete overhaul before the machine is ready for service. So yes, being mechanically inclined is important when purchasing used commercial espresso equipment. But I wouldn't worry about yearly breakdowns once the machine is up and running.

#29: Post by **billt** » May 26th, 2007, 6:31 pm

Yes, the cost of electricity is not important (costs me about 4p per cup, a lot less if I have guests) and it will cost a lot if you have to pay someone to repair the machine for you, but it will also be expensive to have a domestic machine repaired professionally.

However, in my limited experience, commercial parts are not particularly expensive. The only things that are likely to need replacement with any frequency are the group gasket and shower screen. Looking at a UK retail parts supplier gaskets are about £1.50 and shower screens £3-4, hardly a fortune! Other parts seem quite reasonably priced as well. I can't see anything else on my machine that is likely to break any more frequently than a domestic machine, quite the reverse in fact.

#30: Post by **Compass Coffee** » May 26th, 2007, 6:59 pm

ericpmoss wrote:My back-of-envelope calculation for use is:

Cimbali 2-group: 4200W

24x7: 4200 * 24 ~ 100kWh/day * $0.05/kWh = $5/day

So with 24/7 operation, you will never recoup the cost of your two capps/day, let alone the cost of the machine and maintenance and water purifier and its upkeep. Support your local dealer instead.

12x7 (2 hours to warm up, then on 10 hours (one use at breakfast, one at dinner) ~ $2.50/day

Here you need drink 2 capps a day, assuming free ingredients, for only the next 6 years to recoup the energy cost if it stays stable. Then there's the machine and maintenance and so on. Your first call should be under $500 or so, so that's only 7 more months of drinking to recoup. Not bad...

I guess it starts to maybe make sense if you can get a commercial one-group at eBay prices that doesn't need a ton of fixup. Frankly, I'd recommend that reconditioned Cremina fullsack offered on eBay a few weeks back. And a good water system and great beans. It's actually possible to get better results and repay the effort within one's lifetime.

Eric

Your cost estimates are totally wrong. 4200W rating is the maximum wattage pump and heater running flat out. Go determine the duty cycle of the heater while machine is idle and do your calculations over and try again.

If I had used your always flat out calculations for my Bric's 1900w sure would be over $2 per day to leave it on all the time. In reality it costs approximately $3 per month idle 24/7.

If calculating 24/7 versus 12/7 you must also calculate additional increased heater duty during warmup which is much greater than while idle fully heated.

EDITED (AFTER RE-READING LATER): Eric, I apologize if that came off as harsh and any feelings were hurt. Pulled a long 17hr double yesterday followed by short night's sleep but no excuse to be rude.

Not trying to scare newer forum members away!

Commercial espresso machines in the home - Page 3

Have you considered a commercial espresso machine for home use?